Laser declaw? Huh?

From: (stlibf)

Note: I do NOT want to get lectured by the people who think declawing
is "wrong" or "cruel" Don't waste your time or mine, please.

Surely you didn't think you could post about wanting to amputate the ends of
your cat's toes in a cat loving newsgroup and not get any comments. If you
feel compelled to mutilate your cat, please find another home for him.

1. It is illegal in many countries and even some animal shelters and vets in
the United States won't perform the surgery.

2. Cats actually walk on their first digit, which is the digit that is
amputated. They can begin to walk incorrectly due to the amputation.

3. Declawing is not just yanking the claw out, it is the amputation of the
first digit, which is the equivalent of us having our fingers cut off to the
first knuckle.

4. Declawed cats can become fear biters. Cats first defense mechanism are their
claws, when these are gone they bite. Biting can cause severe blood poisoning .


5. Declawed cats can and do suffer behavioral disorders, such as not using the
litter box due to discomfort in their feet, and may use the rest of the house
as their litterbox. They also have trouble jumping and landing, and in some
severe cases, both domestic and wild cats have become lame upon being declawed.


Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the
Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and
internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research,
explains declawing:

"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats'
recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries,
including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful,
declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage
because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of
the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably
by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to
a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to
this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been
employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the
clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of
analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used
postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and
transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge."


"Declawing, or onychectomy, is an amputation of the toe at the last joint.
This removes the claw and the bone from which it originates. On a human hand
this would be an amputation at the knuckle just above the nail. It is not
just removal of the claw as many people think." Matthew J. Ehrenberg, DVM

"It is serious surgery. Your cat's claw is not a toenail. It is actually
closely adhered to the bone. So closely adhered that to remove the claw, the
last bone of your the cat's claw has to be removed. Declawing is actually an
amputation of the last joint of your cat's "toes". When you envision that,
it becomes clear why declawing is not a humane act. It is a painful surgery,
with a painful recovery period." Dr. Christianne Schelling, DVM

"The amputation of the nail is accomplished with a guillotine nail cutter,
which cuts across the first joint of the toe" Dr. Paul Rowan, DVM

"Declawing (onchyectomy) is a surgical procedure that amputates the 3rd
phalanx bone and claw of all ten front foot toes of a cat. This is
comparable to the amputation of the last bone of each finger in the human
hand." Dr. Jennifer Kissinger, DVM

"The feline digit, just like the human digit (finger), possesses three
phalanxes. When a cat is declawed it is the third or last phalanx, that is
completely removed or amputated." Murphy Animal Hospital, Tampa, Florida

"Declawing, or onychectomy, is the amputation of the claw and last bone
(third phalanx) of the cat's toes at the first joint on the front feet. It's
the
equivalent of removing the last bone of all your fingers." Dr. Alice Crook,
Head, Animal Welfare Unit at Atlantic Veterinary College, University of
Prince Edward
Island.

"Declawing is the surgical amputation under general anesthesia of the last
part of the toe - comparable to the removal of your fingertip at the first
joint." Veterinary Information Network, Inc

"The most common surgical procedure, onychectomy, or "declawing", is
amputation of the claw and the end toe bone joint." The Cat Fanciers'
Association

"Declawing a cat involves general anesthesia and amputation of the last
joint of each toe, including the bones, not just the nail." Doctors Who's
Who, Inc.

J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug 1;213(3):370-3412 Comparison of effects of elective
tenectomy or onychectomy in cats. Jankowski AJ, Brown DC, Duval J, Gregor TP,
Strine LE, Ksiazek LM, Ott AH Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary
Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia 19104, USA.
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Owners should be aware of the high complication rate for
both procedures. Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80 Feline onychectomy at a
teaching institution: a retrospective study of 163 cases. Tobias KS Department
of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, Washington State University College of
Veterinary Medicine, Pullman 99164-6610.
One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to
November 1992. Onychectomy was performed with guillotine-type nail shears
(62%), surgical blade (24.5%), or both (8.6%), and wound closure consisted of
bandages alone (61.3%), bandages after suture closure (26.4%), or tissue
adhesive application (9.2%). The duration of surgery was significantly longer
when onychectomy was performed with a blade or when suture closure was used
instead of bandages alone (P .05). Fifty percent of the cats had one or more
complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications
included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%),
or non-weight-bearing (5.6%), and were observed more frequently after blade
onychectomy (P .001). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed
complications after release. Late postoperative complications included
infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance
(1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%). Late postoperative
complications were observed more frequently after shears onychectomy (P =
..018). Use of tissue adhesive was associated with more postoperative lameness
(P .02) and, when used after shears onychectomy, with more infections (P =
..049).

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

"stlibf" wrote in message
om...
My cat is 9 months old. Hes not neutered yet because Im dragging my
feet deciding if he should be laser declawed or traditionally
declawed, and Im going to have him neutered at the same time as
declawed.

I had my cat declawed and spayed at the same time. With your callous
attitude, I think you probably wouldn't even feel like a Nazi if you
did this to your cat. I did.

My cat turned into a biter, stopped covering her poop in the litter
box after age seven (mutilated feet tend to be arthritic in old age,
who knew?) and her beautiful little feet looked like dust mops.
Deformed and sickening.

Having made the mistake of mutilating her, I at least did right by her
and kept her all 20 years of her life, never letting her outside.

You will do whatever you want, I did. My experience left me never
wanting to do it to another cat, ever, and I have had three cats since
that I *trained* instead of resorting to hacking off their toes. You
can train them! It's just amazing. But you won't want to consider
that. It would take more effort on your part than dumping your
helpless, trusting cat off at the vet and writing a check.

Moron.

"stlibf" wrote in message
om...
My cat is 9 months old. Hes not neutered yet because Im dragging my
feet deciding if he should be laser declawed or traditionally
declawed, and Im going to have him neutered at the same time as
declawed.

I had my cat declawed and spayed at the same time. With your callous
attitude, I think you probably wouldn't even feel like a Nazi if you
did this to your cat. I did.

My cat turned into a biter, stopped covering her poop in the litter
box after age seven (mutilated feet tend to be arthritic in old age,
who knew?) and her beautiful little feet looked like dust mops.
Deformed and sickening.

Having made the mistake of mutilating her, I at least did right by her
and kept her all 20 years of her life, never letting her outside.

You will do whatever you want, I did. My experience left me never
wanting to do it to another cat, ever, and I have had three cats since
that I *trained* instead of resorting to hacking off their toes. You
can train them! It's just amazing. But you won't want to consider
that. It would take more effort on your part than dumping your
helpless, trusting cat off at the vet and writing a check.

Moron.

KellyH wrote in news7FNb.77210$na.42779@attbi_s04 on 15 Jan 2004:

Sorry bud, but you came to the wrong place if you dont want to get
lectured! Either way, traditional surgery or laser, you are having
your cat's toes amputated. Get him a nice, sturdy scratching post.
Yes, he likes to scratch, all cats do.

Heh. My suggestion would be to get him a better home.

Go ahead and get him neutered
before he starts spraying.




--
Cheryl

I shall call him Squishy and he shall be mine. And he shall be my Squishy.
Come here Squishy. Ow. Bad Squishy.
- Dori

KellyH wrote in news7FNb.77210$na.42779@attbi_s04 on 15 Jan 2004:

Sorry bud, but you came to the wrong place if you dont want to get
lectured! Either way, traditional surgery or laser, you are having
your cat's toes amputated. Get him a nice, sturdy scratching post.
Yes, he likes to scratch, all cats do.

Heh. My suggestion would be to get him a better home.

Go ahead and get him neutered
before he starts spraying.




--
Cheryl

I shall call him Squishy and he shall be mine. And he shall be my Squishy.
Come here Squishy. Ow. Bad Squishy.
- Dori

Unfortunately, the zealots of the pro-declaw will ignore anything they believe
to delay their cause. Most, not all, people are anti-declaw..I'm against
declaw - unless it's the last option between surrending the cat or keeping the
cat in the home. I also anti-4 paw declaw. You might want to do a google search
on laser declaw for additional info.

Unfortunately, the zealots of the pro-declaw will ignore anything they believe
to delay their cause. Most, not all, people are anti-declaw..I'm against
declaw - unless it's the last option between surrending the cat or keeping the
cat in the home. I also anti-4 paw declaw. You might want to do a google search
on laser declaw for additional info.

essentially rip out the last tip of the bone or something, correct?
[..]
Again please, NOT on declaw vs. don't declaw, because my cat is
[..]
to scratch, and is getting declawed, period.
Thanks and have a great day!

You asked not for a declawing opinion, but you're going to get it
anyway (as it looks like you have already).

For someone who basically knows what declawing involves, saying that
declawing is not an option and "have a great day" do not seem to follow.
Isn't "ripping out the tips of bones" something more appropriate for a
Central American death squads or something? I can assure you (not from
personal experience, but I trust the opinion of vets who have witnessed
the procedure) that it will not be a great day for the cat.. It will be
a painful day, and a painful week, and maybe a painful month, or however
long it takes a cat to "recuperate" from (if the cat were human) torture.

I would strongly urge you to read the book The Cat Who Cried for Help,
by Nicholas H. Dodman, ( who is BVMS, MRCVS - Bantam Books, 1997),
specifically the chapter "The Rebel Without Claws". He is strongly
against declawing, and considers it inhumane (as the equivalent procedure
performed on a human is - note that if this were proposed for a medical
experiement, it would never get past the first Internal Review Board)

He is also strongly in favor of the *approrpiate* use of psychotropic
medications - antidepressants and in some cases tranquilizers - to
control very extreme forms of behavior, if normal forms of behavior
control (scratching posts, training) do not work.

My family has had 3 cats. All of them were trained to use scratching
posts, and used them (although they are indoor/outdoor cats) None have
major scratching problems that we have not been able to stop by a loud
"NO!" (or just a sharp look - they know what not to do).

Scratching is a normal behavioral response, as well as very probably
having a psycho-neurological effect similar to that of a human
stretching. If trained correctly, a cat will use a scratching post for
claw maintainance, and will "strech" appropriately (ie not on furnature
or the sofa). To deprive a cat of this, as well as its natural means of
defense if it ever escapes, or must be given to future owners, IS cruel.
A human doctor's oath begins "First, do no harm". Apparently not all
verterinatians hold to the same creed.

Dodman write in his book (when talking about a verterinarian who
advocates declawing over behavior-modification therapy, including
medication):

"Dr. Wilson has just informed us about how little she employs drug
treatments to assist in the management of behavior problems. I don't
know why anyone would want to make such a claim because drugs, when used
correctly, *relieve* pain and suffering and can expedite recovery. At
the verterinary schools in California and Pennsylvania, and at our own
verterinary school, pharmacologic supportive therapy is used in thirty to
sevety percent of behavior cases now, and to good effect. Cat cases
would be included in the upper end of this percentage range because the
problems they present are less amenable to behavior modification than
those of dogs. Purposely avoiding the use of drugs, *especially when
dealing with cat problems*, seems more of an ommision than a
recommendable strategy and I don't see any sense in it. Painful surgical
solutions to behavioral prohblems, however, are a different matter and
should not be undertaken lightly, if at all. (142, hardbound edition,
emphasis added)

Excessive scratching can be likened to human obsessive-compulsive
disorder (OCD), which in the large majority of (human) cases, responds
very well to medication (SSRIs or other antidepressants, anti-anxiety
medications, or others). If I may cautiously speculate, is seems
reasonable to assume that some (if not most) cases of such "pathological"
pet problems are (partly or mostly) operationally identical to analogous
human disorders, and furthermore that their root biochemical causes are
also similar. This bolsters the argument for the appropriateness of
pharmocological therapy in conjunction with more traditional behavior
modification programs.

Dodman's book was written in 1997. In the six years sense them, a
great deal of research has been performed on the biochemical bases of
human psycho-neurological disorders such as OCD, and to a lesser extent,
new drug therapies have been developed. It is reasonable to assume that
there is information relating this to the management of behavior problems
in the verterinary field.

Jim Witte

essentially rip out the last tip of the bone or something, correct?
[..]
Again please, NOT on declaw vs. don't declaw, because my cat is
[..]
to scratch, and is getting declawed, period.
Thanks and have a great day!

You asked not for a declawing opinion, but you're going to get it
anyway (as it looks like you have already).

For someone who basically knows what declawing involves, saying that
declawing is not an option and "have a great day" do not seem to follow.
Isn't "ripping out the tips of bones" something more appropriate for a
Central American death squads or something? I can assure you (not from
personal experience, but I trust the opinion of vets who have witnessed
the procedure) that it will not be a great day for the cat.. It will be
a painful day, and a painful week, and maybe a painful month, or however
long it takes a cat to "recuperate" from (if the cat were human) torture.

I would strongly urge you to read the book The Cat Who Cried for Help,
by Nicholas H. Dodman, ( who is BVMS, MRCVS - Bantam Books, 1997),
specifically the chapter "The Rebel Without Claws". He is strongly
against declawing, and considers it inhumane (as the equivalent procedure
performed on a human is - note that if this were proposed for a medical
experiement, it would never get past the first Internal Review Board)

He is also strongly in favor of the *approrpiate* use of psychotropic
medications - antidepressants and in some cases tranquilizers - to
control very extreme forms of behavior, if normal forms of behavior
control (scratching posts, training) do not work.

My family has had 3 cats. All of them were trained to use scratching
posts, and used them (although they are indoor/outdoor cats) None have
major scratching problems that we have not been able to stop by a loud
"NO!" (or just a sharp look - they know what not to do).

Scratching is a normal behavioral response, as well as very probably
having a psycho-neurological effect similar to that of a human
stretching. If trained correctly, a cat will use a scratching post for
claw maintainance, and will "strech" appropriately (ie not on furnature
or the sofa). To deprive a cat of this, as well as its natural means of
defense if it ever escapes, or must be given to future owners, IS cruel.
A human doctor's oath begins "First, do no harm". Apparently not all
verterinatians hold to the same creed.

Dodman write in his book (when talking about a verterinarian who
advocates declawing over behavior-modification therapy, including
medication):

"Dr. Wilson has just informed us about how little she employs drug
treatments to assist in the management of behavior problems. I don't
know why anyone would want to make such a claim because drugs, when used
correctly, *relieve* pain and suffering and can expedite recovery. At
the verterinary schools in California and Pennsylvania, and at our own
verterinary school, pharmacologic supportive therapy is used in thirty to
sevety percent of behavior cases now, and to good effect. Cat cases
would be included in the upper end of this percentage range because the
problems they present are less amenable to behavior modification than
those of dogs. Purposely avoiding the use of drugs, *especially when
dealing with cat problems*, seems more of an ommision than a
recommendable strategy and I don't see any sense in it. Painful surgical
solutions to behavioral prohblems, however, are a different matter and
should not be undertaken lightly, if at all. (142, hardbound edition,
emphasis added)

Excessive scratching can be likened to human obsessive-compulsive
disorder (OCD), which in the large majority of (human) cases, responds
very well to medication (SSRIs or other antidepressants, anti-anxiety
medications, or others). If I may cautiously speculate, is seems
reasonable to assume that some (if not most) cases of such "pathological"
pet problems are (partly or mostly) operationally identical to analogous
human disorders, and furthermore that their root biochemical causes are
also similar. This bolsters the argument for the appropriateness of
pharmocological therapy in conjunction with more traditional behavior
modification programs.

Dodman's book was written in 1997. In the six years sense them, a
great deal of research has been performed on the biochemical bases of
human psycho-neurological disorders such as OCD, and to a lesser extent,
new drug therapies have been developed. It is reasonable to assume that
there is information relating this to the management of behavior problems
in the verterinary field.

Jim Witte

Mary, wrote:

My cat turned into a biter, stopped covering her poop in the litter
box after age seven (mutilated feet tend to be arthritic in old age,
who knew?) and her beautiful little feet looked like dust mops.
Deformed and sickening.
Having made the mistake of mutilating her, I at least did right by her
and kept her all 20 years of her life, never letting her outside.

My heart goes out to your cat. If God is truely merciful (which I
believe is true), she is now in a better place, with paws restored.

It pains me to think what cats would say to us if they could talk.
Perhaps in the next 50 years, understanding of mamelian neurology and
technology will give us a chance to hear some part of their repressed or
remembered pain, real pain when walking, and hightened fear reactions,
abnormal behavioral triggers, and extreme stress reactions.

Remember, studies have shown that monkeys traumatized early in life
show hightened stress reactions all their lives (Stephen J Suomi
"Psychobiology of intergenerational effects of trauma: Evidence from
animal studies." [1], and other studies by the same researcher) The
basic neurological systems of the mamalian brain are quite old
evolutionarily - the "repillian brain" coorinating the endocrine system
and thus stress response with the limbic system and emotional arousal and
fear behavior.

Dierect evidence from human childhood trauma victims, and war veterans
also unfortuately supports this view. It is almost certain that the
biochemical signaling involved in these systems is also highly
evolutionarily conserved, and is logical to think that similar psysical
trauma to cats early in life is directly responsible for such behavioral
problems.

[1] 1998, Stephen J Suomi and Levine S. "Psychobiology of
intergenerational effects of trauma: Evidence from animal studies." Pp.
623-637 INTERNATIONAL HANDBOOK OF MULTIGENERATIONAL LEGACIES OF TRAUMA.
Danieli Y, ed. New York, Plenum Press, 1998)