Laser declaw? Huh?

Mary, wrote:

My cat turned into a biter, stopped covering her poop in the litter
box after age seven (mutilated feet tend to be arthritic in old age,
who knew?) and her beautiful little feet looked like dust mops.
Deformed and sickening.
Having made the mistake of mutilating her, I at least did right by her
and kept her all 20 years of her life, never letting her outside.

My heart goes out to your cat. If God is truely merciful (which I
believe is true), she is now in a better place, with paws restored.

It pains me to think what cats would say to us if they could talk.
Perhaps in the next 50 years, understanding of mamelian neurology and
technology will give us a chance to hear some part of their repressed or
remembered pain, real pain when walking, and hightened fear reactions,
abnormal behavioral triggers, and extreme stress reactions.

Remember, studies have shown that monkeys traumatized early in life
show hightened stress reactions all their lives (Stephen J Suomi
"Psychobiology of intergenerational effects of trauma: Evidence from
animal studies." [1], and other studies by the same researcher) The
basic neurological systems of the mamalian brain are quite old
evolutionarily - the "repillian brain" coorinating the endocrine system
and thus stress response with the limbic system and emotional arousal and
fear behavior.

Dierect evidence from human childhood trauma victims, and war veterans
also unfortuately supports this view. It is almost certain that the
biochemical signaling involved in these systems is also highly
evolutionarily conserved, and is logical to think that similar psysical
trauma to cats early in life is directly responsible for such behavioral
problems.

[1] 1998, Stephen J Suomi and Levine S. "Psychobiology of
intergenerational effects of trauma: Evidence from animal studies." Pp.
623-637 INTERNATIONAL HANDBOOK OF MULTIGENERATIONAL LEGACIES OF TRAUMA.
Danieli Y, ed. New York, Plenum Press, 1998)

PawsForThought, olitter writes:
2. Cats actually walk on their first digit, which is the digit that is
amputated. They can begin to walk incorrectly due to the amputation.

3. Declawing is not just yanking the claw out, it is the amputation of the
first digit, which is the equivalent of us having our fingers cut off to the
first knuckle.

4. Declawed cats can become fear biters.

When is some bright researcher going to identify the protein which
signals the claw to grow, and figure out a way to disable it? Then we
wouldn't need to resort to amputation - simply to shutting off claw
growth (which might be debatably in-humane also, but at least it would be
reversible)

Jim

PawsForThought, olitter writes:
2. Cats actually walk on their first digit, which is the digit that is
amputated. They can begin to walk incorrectly due to the amputation.

3. Declawing is not just yanking the claw out, it is the amputation of the
first digit, which is the equivalent of us having our fingers cut off to the
first knuckle.

4. Declawed cats can become fear biters.

When is some bright researcher going to identify the protein which
signals the claw to grow, and figure out a way to disable it? Then we
wouldn't need to resort to amputation - simply to shutting off claw
growth (which might be debatably in-humane also, but at least it would be
reversible)

Jim

PawsForThought, olitter writes:
Early postoperative complications
included pain (38.1%)

*Only* 38 percent? How did they measure pain I wonder?

PawsForThought, olitter writes:
Early postoperative complications
included pain (38.1%)

*Only* 38 percent? How did they measure pain I wonder?

"Jim Witte" wrote in message
...
essentially rip out the last tip of the bone or something, correct?
[..]
Again please, NOT on declaw vs. don't declaw, because my cat is
[..]
to scratch, and is getting declawed, period.
Thanks and have a great day!

You asked not for a declawing opinion, but you're going to get it
anyway (as it looks like you have already).

For someone who basically knows what declawing involves, saying that
declawing is not an option and "have a great day" do not seem to follow.
Isn't "ripping out the tips of bones" something more appropriate for a
Central American death squads or something? I can assure you (not from
personal experience, but I trust the opinion of vets who have witnessed
the procedure) that it will not be a great day for the cat.. It will be
a painful day, and a painful week, and maybe a painful month, or however
long it takes a cat to "recuperate" from (if the cat were human) torture.

I would strongly urge you to read the book The Cat Who Cried for Help,
by Nicholas H. Dodman, ( who is BVMS, MRCVS - Bantam Books, 1997),
specifically the chapter "The Rebel Without Claws". He is strongly
against declawing, and considers it inhumane (as the equivalent procedure
performed on a human is - note that if this were proposed for a medical
experiement, it would never get past the first Internal Review Board)

He is also strongly in favor of the *approrpiate* use of psychotropic
medications - antidepressants and in some cases tranquilizers - to
control very extreme forms of behavior, if normal forms of behavior
control (scratching posts, training) do not work.

My family has had 3 cats. All of them were trained to use scratching
posts, and used them (although they are indoor/outdoor cats) None have
major scratching problems that we have not been able to stop by a loud
"NO!" (or just a sharp look - they know what not to do).

Scratching is a normal behavioral response, as well as very probably
having a psycho-neurological effect similar to that of a human
stretching. If trained correctly, a cat will use a scratching post for
claw maintainance, and will "strech" appropriately (ie not on furnature
or the sofa). To deprive a cat of this, as well as its natural means of
defense if it ever escapes, or must be given to future owners, IS cruel.
A human doctor's oath begins "First, do no harm". Apparently not all
verterinatians hold to the same creed.

Dodman write in his book (when talking about a verterinarian who
advocates declawing over behavior-modification therapy, including
medication):

"Dr. Wilson has just informed us about how little she employs drug
treatments to assist in the management of behavior problems. I don't
know why anyone would want to make such a claim because drugs, when used
correctly, *relieve* pain and suffering and can expedite recovery. At
the verterinary schools in California and Pennsylvania, and at our own
verterinary school, pharmacologic supportive therapy is used in thirty to
sevety percent of behavior cases now, and to good effect. Cat cases
would be included in the upper end of this percentage range because the
problems they present are less amenable to behavior modification than
those of dogs. Purposely avoiding the use of drugs, *especially when
dealing with cat problems*, seems more of an ommision than a
recommendable strategy and I don't see any sense in it. Painful surgical
solutions to behavioral prohblems, however, are a different matter and
should not be undertaken lightly, if at all. (142, hardbound edition,
emphasis added)

Excessive scratching can be likened to human obsessive-compulsive
disorder (OCD), which in the large majority of (human) cases, responds
very well to medication (SSRIs or other antidepressants, anti-anxiety
medications, or others). If I may cautiously speculate, is seems
reasonable to assume that some (if not most) cases of such "pathological"
pet problems are (partly or mostly) operationally identical to analogous
human disorders, and furthermore that their root biochemical causes are
also similar. This bolsters the argument for the appropriateness of
pharmocological therapy in conjunction with more traditional behavior
modification programs.

Dodman's book was written in 1997. In the six years sense them, a
great deal of research has been performed on the biochemical bases of
human psycho-neurological disorders such as OCD, and to a lesser extent,
new drug therapies have been developed. It is reasonable to assume that
there is information relating this to the management of behavior problems
in the verterinary field.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware that drug therapy was even a possibility
with problem scratchers. Dang I wish I had known that - it may have saved
Ralf's life as it would have given me a reason to get him to the vet before
he actually got sick.

"Jim Witte" wrote in message
...
essentially rip out the last tip of the bone or something, correct?
[..]
Again please, NOT on declaw vs. don't declaw, because my cat is
[..]
to scratch, and is getting declawed, period.
Thanks and have a great day!

You asked not for a declawing opinion, but you're going to get it
anyway (as it looks like you have already).

For someone who basically knows what declawing involves, saying that
declawing is not an option and "have a great day" do not seem to follow.
Isn't "ripping out the tips of bones" something more appropriate for a
Central American death squads or something? I can assure you (not from
personal experience, but I trust the opinion of vets who have witnessed
the procedure) that it will not be a great day for the cat.. It will be
a painful day, and a painful week, and maybe a painful month, or however
long it takes a cat to "recuperate" from (if the cat were human) torture.

I would strongly urge you to read the book The Cat Who Cried for Help,
by Nicholas H. Dodman, ( who is BVMS, MRCVS - Bantam Books, 1997),
specifically the chapter "The Rebel Without Claws". He is strongly
against declawing, and considers it inhumane (as the equivalent procedure
performed on a human is - note that if this were proposed for a medical
experiement, it would never get past the first Internal Review Board)

He is also strongly in favor of the *approrpiate* use of psychotropic
medications - antidepressants and in some cases tranquilizers - to
control very extreme forms of behavior, if normal forms of behavior
control (scratching posts, training) do not work.

My family has had 3 cats. All of them were trained to use scratching
posts, and used them (although they are indoor/outdoor cats) None have
major scratching problems that we have not been able to stop by a loud
"NO!" (or just a sharp look - they know what not to do).

Scratching is a normal behavioral response, as well as very probably
having a psycho-neurological effect similar to that of a human
stretching. If trained correctly, a cat will use a scratching post for
claw maintainance, and will "strech" appropriately (ie not on furnature
or the sofa). To deprive a cat of this, as well as its natural means of
defense if it ever escapes, or must be given to future owners, IS cruel.
A human doctor's oath begins "First, do no harm". Apparently not all
verterinatians hold to the same creed.

Dodman write in his book (when talking about a verterinarian who
advocates declawing over behavior-modification therapy, including
medication):

"Dr. Wilson has just informed us about how little she employs drug
treatments to assist in the management of behavior problems. I don't
know why anyone would want to make such a claim because drugs, when used
correctly, *relieve* pain and suffering and can expedite recovery. At
the verterinary schools in California and Pennsylvania, and at our own
verterinary school, pharmacologic supportive therapy is used in thirty to
sevety percent of behavior cases now, and to good effect. Cat cases
would be included in the upper end of this percentage range because the
problems they present are less amenable to behavior modification than
those of dogs. Purposely avoiding the use of drugs, *especially when
dealing with cat problems*, seems more of an ommision than a
recommendable strategy and I don't see any sense in it. Painful surgical
solutions to behavioral prohblems, however, are a different matter and
should not be undertaken lightly, if at all. (142, hardbound edition,
emphasis added)

Excessive scratching can be likened to human obsessive-compulsive
disorder (OCD), which in the large majority of (human) cases, responds
very well to medication (SSRIs or other antidepressants, anti-anxiety
medications, or others). If I may cautiously speculate, is seems
reasonable to assume that some (if not most) cases of such "pathological"
pet problems are (partly or mostly) operationally identical to analogous
human disorders, and furthermore that their root biochemical causes are
also similar. This bolsters the argument for the appropriateness of
pharmocological therapy in conjunction with more traditional behavior
modification programs.

Dodman's book was written in 1997. In the six years sense them, a
great deal of research has been performed on the biochemical bases of
human psycho-neurological disorders such as OCD, and to a lesser extent,
new drug therapies have been developed. It is reasonable to assume that
there is information relating this to the management of behavior problems
in the verterinary field.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware that drug therapy was even a possibility
with problem scratchers. Dang I wish I had known that - it may have saved
Ralf's life as it would have given me a reason to get him to the vet before
he actually got sick.

"Jim Witte" wrote in message
...
PawsForThought, olitter writes:
Early postoperative complications
included pain (38.1%)

*Only* 38 percent? How did they measure pain I wonder?

Probably the cats that were literally bouncing off the walls as opposed to
the ones who were in so much pain they crawled off in a corner.

"Jim Witte" wrote in message
...
PawsForThought, olitter writes:
Early postoperative complications
included pain (38.1%)

*Only* 38 percent? How did they measure pain I wonder?

Probably the cats that were literally bouncing off the walls as opposed to
the ones who were in so much pain they crawled off in a corner.

From: Jim Witte

Dierect evidence from human childhood trauma victims, and war veterans
also unfortuately supports this view. It is almost certain that the
biochemical signaling involved in these systems is also highly
evolutionarily conserved, and is logical to think that similar psysical
trauma to cats early in life is directly responsible for such behavioral
problems.

[1] 1998, Stephen J Suomi and Levine S. "Psychobiology of
intergenerational effects of trauma: Evidence from animal studies." Pp.
623-637 INTERNATIONAL HANDBOOK OF MULTIGENERATIONAL LEGACIES OF TRAUMA.
Danieli Y, ed. New York, Plenum Press, 1998)

and stress can cause physical problems in turn, especially in cats

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm