Here kitty, kitty

Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
But we have been paying a, "premium on our income tax forms" now for
a number of years. that is, unless you subscribe to the "Arbornomics"
theory that there exists a money tree in Washington DC that can be
plucked for money. Where do you think the money to treat all those
bums off the street comes from? the hospitals certainly can't print
it in their basements. Why, the staste pays them out of our tax
dollars, of course, and they also get federal money too. (also, of
course out of our tax dollars) So what's the difference?
In a true capitalistic system, there would be lots of medical
insurance companies all competing with each other to give the best
medical service for your dollars. People who couldn't afford medical
services would, (are you ready for this?) DIE!! And, knowing this,
they would (presumably) cut a little money out of their pay checks to
buy that insurance from one or more of many companies who were all
competing for their money. (what a concept!) The government would
have little or nothing to do with it. Why, with any luck, they would
only charge us about 10% of our pay in income taxes instead of the
nearly 50% they are currently charging. (Federal, state, property,
auto reg fees, and sales taxes all in that figure) IOW, we might
actually retreat from half socialized to 10 or 15% socialized! Why, I
might even be able to afford a couple of more cats!

At least, I would have the FREEDOM to buy whatever it is that I
wanted with that extra money, instead of having to accept whatever
the government thinks would be best for the society to give me.

.....and therin lies the main difference between the socialized system of
doing things and the capitalistic way of doing them. The freedom to choose
what YOU want to do with your money, versus the government dictating to you
what THEY want to do with your money. Its really a very simple concept.
Freedom, versus Totalitarianism.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:19:04 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
But we have been paying a, "premium on our income tax forms" now for
a number of years. that is, unless you subscribe to the "Arbornomics"
theory that there exists a money tree in Washington DC that can be
plucked for money. Where do you think the money to treat all those
bums off the street comes from? the hospitals certainly can't print
it in their basements. Why, the staste pays them out of our tax
dollars, of course, and they also get federal money too. (also, of
course out of our tax dollars) So what's the difference?
In a true capitalistic system, there would be lots of medical
insurance companies all competing with each other to give the best
medical service for your dollars. People who couldn't afford medical
services would, (are you ready for this?) DIE!! And, knowing this,
they would (presumably) cut a little money out of their pay checks to
buy that insurance from one or more of many companies who were all
competing for their money. (what a concept!) The government would
have little or nothing to do with it. Why, with any luck, they would
only charge us about 10% of our pay in income taxes instead of the
nearly 50% they are currently charging. (Federal, state, property,
auto reg fees, and sales taxes all in that figure) IOW, we might
actually retreat from half socialized to 10 or 15% socialized! Why, I
might even be able to afford a couple of more cats!

At least, I would have the FREEDOM to buy whatever it is that I
wanted with that extra money, instead of having to accept whatever
the government thinks would be best for the society to give me.

....and therin lies the main difference between the socialized system of
doing things and the capitalistic way of doing them. The freedom to choose
what YOU want to do with your money, versus the government dictating to you
what THEY want to do with your money. Its really a very simple concept.
Freedom, versus Totalitarianism.

Don't be obtuse. If you don't have health insurance, most hospitals
will still treat you. Who do you think pays for the treatment? The
hospital passes those costs onto those who pay; also, the increased
costs of medical care are passed onto insurance companies which in
turn pass the increased costs onto consumers of health care insurance.

You are free to buy any kind of health insurance that you want to. You
are also free NOT to buy health insurance, but if you don't, you have
to pay the government a tax penalty on your 1040 form.

I imagine that hospitals who treat those without insurance will be
able to get some kind of reimbursement from the federal government
based on name and social security number.

--

On 2/17/2013 8:19 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
But we have been paying a, "premium on our income tax forms" now for
a number of years. that is, unless you subscribe to the "Arbornomics"
theory that there exists a money tree in Washington DC that can be
plucked for money. Where do you think the money to treat all those
bums off the street comes from? the hospitals certainly can't print
it in their basements. Why, the staste pays them out of our tax
dollars, of course, and they also get federal money too. (also, of
course out of our tax dollars) So what's the difference?
In a true capitalistic system, there would be lots of medical
insurance companies all competing with each other to give the best
medical service for your dollars. People who couldn't afford medical
services would, (are you ready for this?) DIE!! And, knowing this,
they would (presumably) cut a little money out of their pay checks to
buy that insurance from one or more of many companies who were all
competing for their money. (what a concept!) The government would
have little or nothing to do with it. Why, with any luck, they would
only charge us about 10% of our pay in income taxes instead of the
nearly 50% they are currently charging. (Federal, state, property,
auto reg fees, and sales taxes all in that figure) IOW, we might
actually retreat from half socialized to 10 or 15% socialized! Why, I
might even be able to afford a couple of more cats!

At least, I would have the FREEDOM to buy whatever it is that I
wanted with that extra money, instead of having to accept whatever
the government thinks would be best for the society to give me.

....and therin lies the main difference between the socialized system of
doing things and the capitalistic way of doing them. The freedom to
choose what YOU want to do with your money, versus the government
dictating to you what THEY want to do with your money. Its really a very
simple concept. Freedom, versus Totalitarianism.

Well, as long as you aren't setting your hair on fire.

You mean there is no middle ground between unfettered capitalism and
totalitarianism? I think you'd find several hundred million people in
Europe who would respectfully disagree with you.

Of course, you probably think they do live under the most repressive
communist regime possible right now. You do want to be consistent, right?

Per Tom McDonald:
You mean there is no middle ground between unfettered capitalism and
totalitarianism? I think you'd find several hundred million people in
Europe who would respectfully disagree with you.

A few of them are my relatives in Germany.

Their view of the USA seems tb like our view of some third-world
countries: Exciting and interesting to visit, cheap goods, but no place
they would want to live.

OTOH, when we visit them in Germany, my reaction is "Wow!... world-class
infrastructure, everything's sooo clean (except where foreigners live),
4-6 weeks vacation the norm, universal health care, almost no fences
(seemingly because they don't have the lawyer's feeding frenzies that we
have when somebody gets hurt on somebody else's property),
vastly-superior literacy in the general population... and on-and-on....
But it's not a place I'd want to live in: way too many Germans.... -)
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:10:35 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tom McDonald:
You mean there is no middle ground between unfettered capitalism and
totalitarianism? I think you'd find several hundred million people in
Europe who would respectfully disagree with you.

A few of them are my relatives in Germany.

Their view of the USA seems tb like our view of some third-world
countries: Exciting and interesting to visit, cheap goods, but no place
they would want to live.

OTOH, when we visit them in Germany, my reaction is "Wow!... world-class
infrastructure, everything's sooo clean (except where foreigners live),
4-6 weeks vacation the norm, universal health care, almost no fences
(seemingly because they don't have the lawyer's feeding frenzies that we
have when somebody gets hurt on somebody else's property),
vastly-superior literacy in the general population... and on-and-on....
But it's not a place I'd want to live in: way too many Germans.... -)

I have cousins in England. Two of them - a brother and sister - spent
a lot of time in the U.S. The sister worked as a nurse in Southern
California for a couple of years, and the brother went to school and
traveled around quite a bit.

They have both emigrated to Australia. Me? I grew up in Pennsylvania
after emigrating in the mid-1950s, and now I live in Mexico.

--

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:19:04 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
But we have been paying a, "premium on our income tax forms" now
for a number of years. that is, unless you subscribe to the
"Arbornomics" theory that there exists a money tree in Washington
DC that can be plucked for money. Where do you think the money to
treat all those bums off the street comes from? the hospitals
certainly can't print it in their basements. Why, the staste pays
them out of our tax dollars, of course, and they also get federal
money too. (also, of course out of our tax dollars) So what's the
difference?
In a true capitalistic system, there would be lots of medical
insurance companies all competing with each other to give the best
medical service for your dollars. People who couldn't afford
medical services would, (are you ready for this?) DIE!! And,
knowing this, they would (presumably) cut a little money out of
their pay checks to buy that insurance from one or more of many
companies who were all competing for their money. (what a
concept!) The government would have little or nothing to do with
it. Why, with any luck, they would only charge us about 10% of our
pay in income taxes instead of the nearly 50% they are currently
charging. (Federal, state, property, auto reg fees, and sales
taxes all in that figure) IOW, we might actually retreat from half
socialized to 10 or 15% socialized! Why, I might even be able to
afford a couple of more cats!

At least, I would have the FREEDOM to buy whatever it is that I
wanted with that extra money, instead of having to accept whatever
the government thinks would be best for the society to give me.

....and therin lies the main difference between the socialized
system of doing things and the capitalistic way of doing them. The
freedom to choose what YOU want to do with your money, versus the
government dictating to you what THEY want to do with your money.
Its really a very simple concept. Freedom, versus Totalitarianism.

Don't be obtuse. If you don't have health insurance, most hospitals
will still treat you. Who do you think pays for the treatment? The
hospital passes those costs onto those who pay; also, the increased
costs of medical care are passed onto insurance companies which in
turn pass the increased costs onto consumers of health care insurance.

You are free to buy any kind of health insurance that you want to. You
are also free NOT to buy health insurance, but if you don't, you have
to pay the government a tax penalty on your 1040 form.

I imagine that hospitals who treat those without insurance will be
able to get some kind of reimbursement from the federal government
based on name and social security number.

You still don;t understand. I never asked my government to treat p3eople
without health insurance. The liberals did that without my permission. As
soon as they did that, they threw away capitalism and adopted socialism. I
am a libertarian. This is the antithesis of socialism. Now that we have a
socialized medical system, you are using it to justify your illogical
problems that wouldn;t be here had you not adopted socialism to begin with.
And, to describe a uniquely socialistic problem to me and complain that my
capitalism can't solve it is duplicious and illogical.

Tom McDonald wrote:
On 2/17/2013 8:19 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
But we have been paying a, "premium on our income tax forms" now
for a number of years. that is, unless you subscribe to the
"Arbornomics" theory that there exists a money tree in Washington
DC that can be plucked for money. Where do you think the money to
treat all those bums off the street comes from? the hospitals
certainly can't print it in their basements. Why, the staste pays
them out of our tax dollars, of course, and they also get federal
money too. (also, of course out of our tax dollars) So what's the
difference? In a true capitalistic system, there would be lots of
medical
insurance companies all competing with each other to give the best
medical service for your dollars. People who couldn't afford
medical services would, (are you ready for this?) DIE!! And,
knowing this, they would (presumably) cut a little money out of
their pay checks to buy that insurance from one or more of many
companies who were all competing for their money. (what a
concept!) The government would have little or nothing to do with
it. Why, with any luck, they would only charge us about 10% of our
pay in income taxes instead of the nearly 50% they are currently
charging. (Federal, state, property, auto reg fees, and sales
taxes all in that figure) IOW, we might actually retreat from half
socialized to 10 or 15% socialized! Why, I might even be able to
afford a couple of more cats!

At least, I would have the FREEDOM to buy whatever it is that I
wanted with that extra money, instead of having to accept whatever
the government thinks would be best for the society to give me.

....and therin lies the main difference between the socialized
system of doing things and the capitalistic way of doing them. The
freedom to choose what YOU want to do with your money, versus the
government dictating to you what THEY want to do with your money.
Its really a very simple concept. Freedom, versus Totalitarianism.

Well, as long as you aren't setting your hair on fire.

You mean there is no middle ground between unfettered capitalism and
totalitarianism? I think you'd find several hundred million people in
Europe who would respectfully disagree with you.

Of course, you probably think they do live under the most repressive
communist regime possible right now. You do want to be consistent,
right?

I never said there was no middle ground between, "Unfettered capitalism" and
totalitarianism. I never suggested that we live under unfettered anything. I
only suggest that when you half socialize some industry, the normal rules of
capitalism no longer apply and to insist that they do is duplicious and
unfair. IOW, once the government interferes with the normal price-demand
relationship, the system is thenceforth rigged and wont work right, and to
blame "capitalism" for this is illogical. Our health system is an
outstanding example. It no longer works right not because of capitalism, but
bedause it has had the living hell socialized out of it. So now, they have
to force everyone to buy health insurance. (Do you think that's because
everyone is entitled to be treated at emergency rooms all over the country
when they are sick?) No... That couldnt be the reason!

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Tom McDonald:
You mean there is no middle ground between unfettered capitalism and
totalitarianism? I think you'd find several hundred million people in
Europe who would respectfully disagree with you.

A few of them are my relatives in Germany.

Their view of the USA seems tb like our view of some third-world
countries: Exciting and interesting to visit, cheap goods, but no
place they would want to live.

OTOH, when we visit them in Germany, my reaction is "Wow!...
world-class infrastructure, everything's sooo clean (except where
foreigners live), 4-6 weeks vacation the norm, universal health
care, almost no fences (seemingly because they don't have the
lawyer's feeding frenzies that we have when somebody gets hurt on
somebody else's property), vastly-superior literacy in the general
population... and on-and-on.... But it's not a place I'd want to live
in: way too many Germans.... -)

....And they are also gradually going broke, just as are we. And, for exactly
the same reason. Too many "to each according to their needs", and not nearly
enough "from each according to their abilities"..... You see, there is a
hole in the from each bucket, and directly beneath that bucket is the to
each bucket... I wonder why that is?
The first property of a reasonable system is its longevity. If it can't
last, then why even talk about it? Capitalism at least, has some chance of
long term survival. It suffers from leadership by TV ads right now, but it
still has a chance.....

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:10:35 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tom McDonald:
You mean there is no middle ground between unfettered capitalism and
totalitarianism? I think you'd find several hundred million people
in Europe who would respectfully disagree with you.

A few of them are my relatives in Germany.

Their view of the USA seems tb like our view of some third-world
countries: Exciting and interesting to visit, cheap goods, but no
place they would want to live.

OTOH, when we visit them in Germany, my reaction is "Wow!...
world-class infrastructure, everything's sooo clean (except where
foreigners live), 4-6 weeks vacation the norm, universal health
care, almost no fences (seemingly because they don't have the
lawyer's feeding frenzies that we have when somebody gets hurt on
somebody else's property), vastly-superior literacy in the general
population... and on-and-on.... But it's not a place I'd want to
live in: way too many Germans.... -)

I have cousins in England. Two of them - a brother and sister - spent
a lot of time in the U.S. The sister worked as a nurse in Southern
California for a couple of years, and the brother went to school and
traveled around quite a bit.

They have both emigrated to Australia. Me? I grew up in Pennsylvania
after emigrating in the mid-1950s, and now I live in Mexico.

With open borders, we are gradually becoming a, "third world country" I
doubt seriously if you can cross the border into Germany and become a
citizen and/or find work and stay as easily as you can in the United States.
(They too, are going broke, if I understand the statistics correctly)

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:33:13 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:19:04 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:

Bill Graham wrote:
Bill Graham wrote:
But we have been paying a, "premium on our income tax forms" now
for a number of years. that is, unless you subscribe to the
"Arbornomics" theory that there exists a money tree in Washington
DC that can be plucked for money. Where do you think the money to
treat all those bums off the street comes from? the hospitals
certainly can't print it in their basements. Why, the staste pays
them out of our tax dollars, of course, and they also get federal
money too. (also, of course out of our tax dollars) So what's the
difference?
In a true capitalistic system, there would be lots of medical
insurance companies all competing with each other to give the best
medical service for your dollars. People who couldn't afford
medical services would, (are you ready for this?) DIE!! And,
knowing this, they would (presumably) cut a little money out of
their pay checks to buy that insurance from one or more of many
companies who were all competing for their money. (what a
concept!) The government would have little or nothing to do with
it. Why, with any luck, they would only charge us about 10% of our
pay in income taxes instead of the nearly 50% they are currently
charging. (Federal, state, property, auto reg fees, and sales
taxes all in that figure) IOW, we might actually retreat from half
socialized to 10 or 15% socialized! Why, I might even be able to
afford a couple of more cats!

At least, I would have the FREEDOM to buy whatever it is that I
wanted with that extra money, instead of having to accept whatever
the government thinks would be best for the society to give me.

....and therin lies the main difference between the socialized
system of doing things and the capitalistic way of doing them. The
freedom to choose what YOU want to do with your money, versus the
government dictating to you what THEY want to do with your money.
Its really a very simple concept. Freedom, versus Totalitarianism.

Don't be obtuse. If you don't have health insurance, most hospitals
will still treat you. Who do you think pays for the treatment? The
hospital passes those costs onto those who pay; also, the increased
costs of medical care are passed onto insurance companies which in
turn pass the increased costs onto consumers of health care insurance.

You are free to buy any kind of health insurance that you want to. You
are also free NOT to buy health insurance, but if you don't, you have
to pay the government a tax penalty on your 1040 form.

I imagine that hospitals who treat those without insurance will be
able to get some kind of reimbursement from the federal government
based on name and social security number.

You still don;t understand. I never asked my government to treat p3eople
without health insurance. The liberals did that without my permission. As
soon as they did that, they threw away capitalism and adopted socialism. I
am a libertarian. This is the antithesis of socialism. Now that we have a
socialized medical system, you are using it to justify your illogical
problems that wouldn;t be here had you not adopted socialism to begin with.
And, to describe a uniquely socialistic problem to me and complain that my
capitalism can't solve it is duplicious and illogical.

Of course I understand. You are immoral and have no ethical
responsibility towards your fellow man.

I'm certain that you worship Ayn Rand.

--