Questions for cat experts

Phil P. wrote:
Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats less
food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and canned
food is sold in little cans.


LOL - Come now Phil - that's silly at best. Small cans are a consumer
preference due to convenience. Nobody buys a #10 can of anything
anymore. (For those that are interested a #10 can holds about a 3/4 of
a gallon.) Canned food in a #10 can would dry out in the refer - lose
its PAL and be worthless - except of course for smelling up the refer.

A typical premium dry food contains ~60 kcals/oz
A typical premium can food contains ~30 kcals/oz

The argument that cat eating canned food eats less cannot be justified
under any circumstances or by anyone's mathmatics. The kcal per ounce -
regardless of brand, will always be about double for dried product than
for canned food.

On 2005-07-21 14:40:20 -0700, "Steve Crane" said:

PawsForThought wrote:
I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting.
Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as
well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done:
http://tinyurl.com/7syh7


Remember Zoran's work is HYPOTHESIS, there are no clinical trials or
studies supporting the current carbophobic fad.

How much of that do you think is related to the current *human*
carbophobic fad?

ie, carbs are 'bad' for me, they must be bad for my cat, too!

b

"Biskybabe" wrote in message
news:2005072116213750073%biskybabe@hotmailcom...
On 2005-07-21 14:40:20 -0700, "Steve Crane" said:

PawsForThought wrote:
I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting.
Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as
well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done:
http://tinyurl.com/7syh7


Remember Zoran's work is HYPOTHESIS, there are no clinical trials or
studies supporting the current carbophobic fad.

How much of that do you think is related to the current *human*
carbophobic fad?

ie, carbs are 'bad' for me, they must be bad for my cat, too!

b

I never listen to the current "good for you/bad for you medical advice" -
for one thing they always end up changing their minds (first egss are good
for you, then they're bad for you, then they're good for you again!). I
think my grandmother had the best advice of all... "Eat and drink whatever
you like, just do everything in moderation." She lived to be 104!

Hugs,

CatNipped

I agree,Catnipped! My maternal grandparents lived to their 90's and they
cooked with lard!
"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Biskybabe" wrote in message
news:2005072116213750073%biskybabe@hotmailcom...
On 2005-07-21 14:40:20 -0700, "Steve Crane" said:

PawsForThought wrote:
I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting.
Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as
well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done:
http://tinyurl.com/7syh7


Remember Zoran's work is HYPOTHESIS, there are no clinical trials or
studies supporting the current carbophobic fad.

How much of that do you think is related to the current *human*
carbophobic fad?

ie, carbs are 'bad' for me, they must be bad for my cat, too!

b

I never listen to the current "good for you/bad for you medical advice" -
for one thing they always end up changing their minds (first egss are good
for you, then they're bad for you, then they're good for you again!). I
think my grandmother had the best advice of all... "Eat and drink whatever
you like, just do everything in moderation." She lived to be 104!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Biskybabe wrote:
On 2005-07-21 14:40:20 -0700, "Steve Crane" said:

PawsForThought wrote:
I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting.
Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as
well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done:
http://tinyurl.com/7syh7


Remember Zoran's work is HYPOTHESIS, there are no clinical trials or
studies supporting the current carbophobic fad.

How much of that do you think is related to the current *human*
carbophobic fad?

ie, carbs are 'bad' for me, they must be bad for my cat, too!

b

Cats and humans have completely different nutritional needs. Cats are
obligate carnivores.

"Steve Crane" wrote in message
oups.com...


PawsForThought wrote:
I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting.
Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as
well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done:
http://tinyurl.com/7syh7


Remember Zoran's work is HYPOTHESIS, there are no clinical trials or
studies supporting the current carbophobic fad.

Tell that to the people on the Feline Diabetes list who *cured* their
diabetic cats of their need for exogenous insulin by feeding their cats
low-carbohydrate canned diets, and the people on the feline obesity groups
whose cats lost weight on low carbohydrate canned diets.

Even your company came out with a low carbohydrate diet! Took 'em long
enough! LOL!

"Steve Crane" wrote in message
ps.com...


Phil P. wrote:
Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats
less
food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and
canned
food is sold in little cans.


LOL - Come now Phil - that's silly at best.


That's not funny. Do you want to know what funny is? Funny is making a
cat's natural diet (high-protein, low-carbohydrate) a *prescription* diet
for twice the price (i.e., m/d).



Small cans are a consumer
preference due to convenience.


Silly me thought people feed dry food because its convenient.




A typical premium dry food contains ~60 kcals/oz
A typical premium can food contains ~30 kcals/oz

Steve, even *your* canned food contains about 30 % more protein/100 kcals
than *your* dry food:

Science Dry Adult: 7.7 g protein/100 kcals.

Science Canned Turkey: 9.8 g protein/100 kcals


If you want to talk about volume:

Adult Dry: 493 kcal/per cup. 16 tbsp/cup = 30.81 kcal/tbsp.

Canned Turkey: 174 kcal/ 156 g can. 4 tbsp/can = 43.5 kcal/tbsp

Two tbsp in the am and two in the pm just about does it for most cats.
Maybe all the cats I feed are just acting like their being fed properly.

"Steve G" wrote in message
oups.com...

Phil P. wrote:
"Steve G" wrote in message
oups.com...
(...)

Yes, and I repeat repeat repeat: Stomach-distention satiety mechs are
driven primarily by food volume.

Semantics. Of course "Stomach-distention satiety mechs are driven
primarily
by food volume." But cats don't normally eat until they're full. Cats
eat
to meet their *energy needs*,

Accuracy, not semantics.


Sounds like semantics to me.



If the stomach played no role at all in
modulating eating,


Who said the 'stomach played no role at all in modulating eating'? I said
cats need to meet their energy needs. Of course cats will stop eating when
their bloated!


dissertation snipped



Another fact you're forgetting: dry food is less digestible than an
equal
quality canned food. Ergo, the cat needs to eat more dry food (and
takes in
more mag & phos even though the mag & phos contents are about the same
in
both types of food).

On a DM basis, yes, though this isn't true of every canned diet versus
every dry diet (re. earlier comments by Steve Crane).


I've used dry and canned foods of *equal quality* in every comparison I've
made. Of course a premium dry food will be more digestible than a poor
quality generic brand canned food. You're stating the obvious.


Plus, for
'premium' foods, the digestibility differences between wet and dry are
not great, at least according to the data in SACN.

"Generally, dry foods may be less palatable to a cat and have a lower
digestibility than the moister types. " (Your Cornell reference.)

"Protein digestibility in pet foods is about 80 percent for dry foods, 85
percent for semimoist and canned foods containing large amounts of cereal
grains, and 90 percent for canned diets with meat as the primary protein
source." (The Cat: Diseases and Clinical Management. C.A. Tony Buffington,
Diplomat and President, American College of Veterinary Nutritionists.)



Intakes of Mg and
Phos will depend on the diets in question; a blanket statement that dry
food diets lead to greater ingestion of Mg and Phos is incorrect.

I'm absolutely correct. I said since dry food is less digestible than canned
food, cats need to eat more food; by eating more dry food a cat will ingest
more phosphorus and magnesium than a cat eating an *equal quality* canned
food with the *same* magnesium and phosphorus content.




Cats graze on dry food all day because they usually
can't eat enough dry food in two feedings to meet their daily energy
needs.
There's your 'stomach-distention satiety' a/k/a 'bloat'. LOL!

Try feeding a cat her DER in two feedings of dry food then take away the
remaining food after 30 mins. See how much food the cat left. There's
your
'stomach-distention satiety' again. LOL!The cat will reach your
'stomach-distention satiety' before her energy and nutrient needs are
met!

There are some things you're confounding here with this experiment:

First, cats naturally eat many small meals per day (i.e., prey), and if
wet food could somehow be made continually available, the cat would
probably eat many small meals as they do in the case of dry food.

Could be. But the cat won't need to eat as much food because canned food is
more digestible than an equal quality dry food.



Indeed, one argument made wrt dry feeding is that it facilitates a
cat's natural feeding behavior, to some extent.

Yeah. Eating ceral and a lot of empty carbohydrates and plant material is a
carnivore's natural feeding behavior. LOL!

Canned food resembles a cat's natural diet much more closely than dry food.
1) Cat's generally don't eat cereal and plants in nature. 2) In nature, cats
evolved to obtain almost all their water needs from their food (prey).
That's why they never developed a strong thirst drive which predisposes dry
fed cats to dehydration quickly.



Second, the palatability of the diets will be confounded, i.e.,
certainly in my cats the palatability of dry food means that they can
and will happily eat 0.5 DER in one feeding. I suspect they would eat
their entire DER in one sitting.


I said satiety cues can be orverridden by exceptionally palatable diets,
didn't I? Most dry foods are coated with animal digest- which contains a
lot of phosphoric acid- to enhance flavor. That's another reason why most
cats fed dry food are overweight or obese.




Third, that dry diets are more energy dense as fed is well accepted.
E.g.:

The energy density of dry food is offset by the lower digestibility. Also,
much if not most of the energy in dry food is unsuable carbohydrates that
actually displaces protein and fat.



The literatu Zoran (2002; JAVMA 221: 1559-1567)
"Cats housed exclusively indoors, and consuming energy-dense,
high-starch, dry foods are provided with more energy than they can
effectively use" (also see Michel et al, in press).

IOW, dry food bloats the cat with useless cheap, carbohydrates that could
predispose the cat to obesity and diabetes. Yes, I know.



Cornell:
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/resou.../feedcats.html
"It takes less dry food on an as-is basis than other types of food to
satisfy a cat, because dry food has more dry matter and a higher energy
content per gram fed."


Most of which the cats can't use.



Touchy-feely types: http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bpo_ch4.php
"Because commercial dry cat food diets are very calorie dense, one
cup of dry food, once ingested, will actually give the cat the
equivalent of 2 cups of fresh food.

Because dry food absorbs intestinal water and expands. Its called bloat!


Hence, cats on a commercial dry cat
food diet are usually over-fed, because the care giver judges how much
to feed by volume not caloric density."

Commercial types: http://www.purina.ca/cats/nutrition.asp?article=196
"Canned Diets
Canned dog foods contain between 8% and 15% protein and between 2% and
15% fat, depending on the type(s) of animal tissue used in the diet.
The moisture content for canned pet foods is approximately 75% (less
than 78%). Canned dog foods deliver 375 to 950 metabolizable
kilocalories per pound. Total food consumption is high because of the
low caloric content."

Gee, what happened to your 'stomach-distention satiety"? Would not the
moisture content of canned food make it heavier than equal kcal of dry food
and result in 'stomach-distention satiety" too.? LOL!



I know you don't really give a **** and just enjoy debates,

Sure. Well, I do give a **** in the sense that I hope to know how
satiety works. In terms of what *practically* works, IMO there's not
much debate to be had: canned food is better in almost every way.
However, I like to know how the different mechanisms work and interact.
You may not be interested in this. Your prerogative.


I prefer to base my opinions on real life experiences with cats.



but try running
your own experiment. Put enough dry food to meet the cat's daily energy
needs in a cup, then add 1 ml of water for every kcal- which is
approximately the cat's daily water requirement. Then compare the
volume in
the cup with the volume of a can of food containing the same amount of
kcals. Let me know which is greater. OK? LOL!

I accept the point that dry food, when hydrated, will have a larger
volume than wet food.

That's exactly what happens in the cat's stomach. Its called 'bloat'. LOL!



Plus, you and others
overstate the problems of carbs per se- e.g., see Michel et al.
(2005, in press).

Tell that to the people on the Feline Diabetes list who *cured* their
diabetic cats of the need for exogenous insulin by feeding their cats
high-protein, low-carbohydrate canned diets, and the people on the feline
obesity groups whose cats all lost weight on low carbohydrate canned diets.
Let me know what they tell you about their *real-life* experiences compared
to your textbook references, ok? LOL!



Comparing canned and dry on an as fed basis again, eh? What did I tell
you
about that? LOL!

Honestly, this is like trying to catch farts in a butterfly net.


Yeah. I'm sure I could learn a lot about feeding cats from you. LOL!


A *minor* satiety cue.

Ah, now we're finally getting somewhere. At least you accept that
stomach fill does play some role in satiety / feeding behavior.


Of course. I never denied that a bloated stomach affects satiety.



Once again, cats don't normally eat until they're
full. Cats eat to meet their *energy needs*, when their energy needs
are
met they stop eating unless their satiety cues are overridden by
exceptionally palatable diets or behavioral factors. That's why you'll
never, or *very* rarely see an overweight or obese wild cat in nature
even
when food is plentiful.



In any case, you've basically said that cats eat to meet their energy
needs ... except when they don't...


Sure- some cats will overeat if the food is exceptionally palatable or they
have a behavioral problem. Cats in nature will always kill more prey than
they eat. But that's related to their hunting instincts and not feeding
behavior since they don't eat most of the prey they kill. In fact a cat
will stop eating to kill prey then resume eating the prey she was eating
before the kill.


As I said, studies don't always correlate with real life.

And yet, there is no disagreement with 'real life' in the studies I've
cited. No-one (myself included) says that stomach fill is *the*
mechanism, just that it is one component of satiety mechanisms and
various mechanisms work together. This was stated very clearly by
Michel (2001; J Fel Med Surg 3: 3-8), again in reference to the cat:

Of course. I never denied that a bloated stomach affects satiety.


nutrient content of the ingesta
appears to be the more important stimulus for cessation of intake at
the level of the small intestine."


Gee, how about that! Canned food contains about 30% more protein per 100
kcal than dry.
(SD Adult Dry: 7.7 g/100 kcal; Turkey canned: 9.8 g/100 kcal.).


I'd also like to take up arms with all the 'scientists' who wrote
'definitive studies on the asocial and solitary nature of cats!

Start a thread. Or a war. Feel free to cite the studies - I haven't
read these studies; within their context (e.g., restricted food /
territory), they may be fine as far as they go.

Most of the studies assumed cats are solitary creatures because they're
solitary hunters. Cats are solitary hunters because it doesn't take more
than one cat to bring down a mouse, nor is a mouse enough for dinner for 2
or 3. I guess those researchers never heard of a feral *colony*.



LOL! Kinda
like 2nd Lts. fresh out of OCS following their handbooks in a combat
zone
instead of listening to experienced combat troops!

I always think no thread is truly complete without you making a war /
Vietnam reference somewhere in it.


Some researchers certainly do remind me of silly textbook 2nd Lts. fresh out
of OCS- who got their asses shot off because they relied on textbooks
instead of what was actually happening in real life. Kinda like you! A
college kid in a school library arguing with a person whose been working
with cats for 40 years- a lot longer than you've even been alive. LOL!

Sometimes I wonder if some of these researchers ever actually saw a cat!
Doesn't seem like they have. LOL! Many studies are simply opinions of other
peoples opinions of other peoples studies.

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"Steve Crane" wrote in message
ps.com...


Phil P. wrote:
Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats
less
food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and
canned
food is sold in little cans.


LOL - Come now Phil - that's silly at best.


That's not funny. Do you want to know what funny is? Funny is making a
cat's natural diet (high-protein, low-carbohydrate) a *prescription* diet
for twice the price (i.e., m/d).

You just uncovered for those who share a litter box with their cat, the
Great Pet Food and Pet Care Marketing Conspiracy. It's the same people who
have been campaigning for vitamins to be by prescription only.

Phil P. wrote:
Tell that to the people on the Feline Diabetes list who *cured* their
diabetic cats of their need for exogenous insulin by feeding their cats
low-carbohydrate canned diets, and the people on the feline obesity groups
whose cats lost weight on low carbohydrate canned diets.

Even your company came out with a low carbohydrate diet! Took 'em long
enough! LOL!

Phil - I never questioned the value of a specific diet for a specific
purpose. What I question is the wholesale application of ANY diet
designed to treat the symptoms of any disease to normal healthy cats as
a "preventative" for that same disease. Renal failure is good case in
point, since renal failure diets greatly reduce the speed of the
disease progression - then by that same logic all cats should be eating
a renal failure diet. As for taking us a long while - you must be
forgetting that the original work done by Greco was a Hill's food.