Indoor cat..quality of life?

"Mary" wrote in message
m...

"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...

"kaeli" wrote:

I have no problems with letting my cats in my yard (if I had one). I
have
a huge problem letting them flit about the neighborhood unattended.


Well if they stayed in the yard and nothing else could get *in* the
yard
I'd
be fine with that! I let Buddha-Boo come out with me while I garden as
long
as I have not sprayed for bugs etc. We have a large fenced back yard,
and
she putters around and explores while I weed etc. But I keep an eye on
her,
and once turned around and realized that she was near the open
gate--and
that if any of the mean dogs that sometimes roam around here came into
the
yard, she would be helpless and I would be too far away to help.
(She's
too
fat to move fast. I can't let Cheeks out because she is so fast and so
squirmy strong she might get away before I know it.) I love to let
them
have
sunshine and eat grass. I just don't want to endanger them.


And that's it, exactly.

If there WERE no mean dogs in the area (there really aren't any in mine,
they're all friendly and like cats, as most of the owners have dogs AND
cats)
or you had a very secure fence that dogs couldn't get over/into, and
your
cats were fast and capable of getting up trees or to other safe areas,
there
would be little harm in letting them in the yard if they never left it.

True. But I would still worry about the possibility. Outdoor conditions
are
dynamic. Moreso in cities and suburbs than more urban areas, but still,
anthing can happen.


I think that's all anyone is trying to say. Going outside doesn't
*always*
mean danger and chances of a gruesome death. Some areas are safer than
others
and roaming cats are at far more risk than ones who stick on their own
property, of course. For some people, their yard is just really, really
big.
(farms, etc)

Also, at least as far as the farm cats I know, there is also the family
dog or dogs to keep strange dogs, coyotes, and other natural animal (and
human)
dangers off the property.

There's just SO much more to the issue than merely going outside or
merely
staying inside.

--

There is. And I think the underlying attitude I mention in other
posts--the
one of cats being "just animals" vs the one of cats being family members
essentially equal to humans in value--is also a factor in the
indoor/outdoor issue. I see this in the posts of the people who post from
the UK;

Who in this thread has made a statement like this?

some of
you have seen it when you have taken your pets to large animal
veterinarians. Then there is the "garden of eden" complex, where whatever
is
natural, including death via predators, is just the way it goes.

Who thinks this way?

These factors taken together with the fact that it is just so
much more convenient to let your cat come and go as it
pleases--especially with regard to cleaning cat boxes

Not true...

and
being mindful of whether or not anybody gets out--

Why is making work for yourself somehow more worthy when said work is
un-necessary?

and
I truly believe that these attitudes lead people to let their
animals roam in situations that are truly dangerous for
the animals. Such as in busy urban or suburban areas,
or in urban areas where there are active predators.

No-one has advocated this, in this thread at least...

That is what is behind the venom in some of my
comments. To endanger our pets for our convenience
and then dress it up in a "wild thing be free" romanticized
crock of horse**** is the worst.

I have not read a single post where the "born free" mentality was apparent;
are we reading the same thread?

Heinous. In my opinion, unworthy of decent
humans regardless of nationality.



Jeannie


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"Mary" wrote in message
m...

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"Mary" wrote in message
m...


You little nasty petty people are so funny.


Why, thank you , Let me return the compliment, you're nasty and
petty
and not funny at
all.

I am certainly nasty but never petty.

BTW I haven't called any one a bitch

a snip from one of Mary's earlier posts directed at me-

You *are* the stupid bitch .....

and I haven't tried and
failed miserably to insult someone's country nor have I failed to
understand irony.

Errr...yes you have, re-read your replies to Steve G



I haven't called anyone a bitch. Your comment was:
"Why not? Have you forgotten what you've said or are you changing
your mind because your friends aren't backing you up?" Nasty and
petty. As far as insulting anyone's nationality, the arrogance of the
British with regard to the exercise of power over the colonies
is the worst kept secret in history. Insult? Perhaps. Fact? You
bet. And the worst mistakes made came from an arrogance
born of an overestimation of their own abilities: acting from the
assured position that anything they might do had to be right
because they are British. God's chosen leaders. Etc., etc. blah blah.
Historical fact.


Yet again, the irony of this statement is almost unbelievable. Do you
actually know what irony means?

Jeannie


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"Mary" wrote in message
m...

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"Mary" wrote in message
m...


You little nasty petty people are so funny.


Why, thank you , Let me return the compliment, you're nasty and
petty
and not funny at
all.

I am certainly nasty but never petty.

BTW I haven't called any one a bitch

a snip from one of Mary's earlier posts directed at me-

You *are* the stupid bitch .....

and I haven't tried and
failed miserably to insult someone's country nor have I failed to
understand irony.

Errr...yes you have, re-read your replies to Steve G



I haven't called anyone a bitch. Your comment was:
"Why not? Have you forgotten what you've said or are you changing
your mind because your friends aren't backing you up?" Nasty and
petty. As far as insulting anyone's nationality, the arrogance of the
British with regard to the exercise of power over the colonies
is the worst kept secret in history. Insult? Perhaps. Fact? You
bet. And the worst mistakes made came from an arrogance
born of an overestimation of their own abilities: acting from the
assured position that anything they might do had to be right
because they are British. God's chosen leaders. Etc., etc. blah blah.
Historical fact.


Yet again, the irony of this statement is almost unbelievable. Do you
actually know what irony means?

Jeannie


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"Mary" wrote in message
m...

Behind even the most measured words
(such as Steve G.'s) there is an underlying, deeply entrenched
cultural more that probably finds its roots in the Romantic
period. The glorification and simultaneous demonizing
and eroticizing of nature. :-) It's in the text books, people.
It's a kneejerk reaction to hundreds of years on conditioning,
not a response to rational thought.



I think you are over over-intellectualising this subject. IMO the attitude
stems not from "glorification and simultaneous demonizing
and eroticizing of nature" but rather from a practical position.

In the past people owned cats to catch mice and therefore the cat had to go
outside to do its job. People put the cat out at night and the cat was then
let back inside in the morning. This was what happened with all our house
cats when I was young and what happened with everyone elses cats too.

While this attitude was all well and good as little as 20 years ago, now
with the increase in cars on the road and the higher proportion of people
living in busy urban areas, the majority of British cat owners haven't
adapted their practices in line with the changing environment and that is
where the problems arise. Even the Cats Protection League here (a
nationwide network of cat shelters) doesn't advocate keeping your cat
indoors in all circumstances, rather that you should make an educated
descision based on your location.

It is a fact, however, that in Britain today, may people hold the opinion
that keeping cats indoors exclusively is somehow cruel. This attitude stems
directly from past cat ownership experiences with no thought to the fact
that, while you may have have previously lived in rural Somerset and owned
indoor/outdoor cats, you now live in central London. No-one in this group
is saying that this attitude is correct, as far as I can see.


Jeannie


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"Mary" wrote in message
m...

Behind even the most measured words
(such as Steve G.'s) there is an underlying, deeply entrenched
cultural more that probably finds its roots in the Romantic
period. The glorification and simultaneous demonizing
and eroticizing of nature. :-) It's in the text books, people.
It's a kneejerk reaction to hundreds of years on conditioning,
not a response to rational thought.



I think you are over over-intellectualising this subject. IMO the attitude
stems not from "glorification and simultaneous demonizing
and eroticizing of nature" but rather from a practical position.

In the past people owned cats to catch mice and therefore the cat had to go
outside to do its job. People put the cat out at night and the cat was then
let back inside in the morning. This was what happened with all our house
cats when I was young and what happened with everyone elses cats too.

While this attitude was all well and good as little as 20 years ago, now
with the increase in cars on the road and the higher proportion of people
living in busy urban areas, the majority of British cat owners haven't
adapted their practices in line with the changing environment and that is
where the problems arise. Even the Cats Protection League here (a
nationwide network of cat shelters) doesn't advocate keeping your cat
indoors in all circumstances, rather that you should make an educated
descision based on your location.

It is a fact, however, that in Britain today, may people hold the opinion
that keeping cats indoors exclusively is somehow cruel. This attitude stems
directly from past cat ownership experiences with no thought to the fact
that, while you may have have previously lived in rural Somerset and owned
indoor/outdoor cats, you now live in central London. No-one in this group
is saying that this attitude is correct, as far as I can see.


Jeannie


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"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...
"Phil P." wrote in message

I don't know this "Bob" character, but I have repeatedly said that I
don't
advocate outdoor access for all cats. What I *have* said is that a risk
assessment has to be made and the pros and cons assessed. To be honest,
I
don't see what is so radical and reactionary in this standpoint.

I would say however, that probably the majority of cat owners in
Britain, in
Europe as a whole, would find your views control freaky and neurotic
and would tend to agree more with this Bob character. Cultural
differences
certainly appear to play a large part in this debate.


Don't say that.
Go Google "Bob Brenchley" in Google Groups.

Really.

The man thinks cats are better off dead than indoors and accuses ALL
indoor-
only cat owners of animal abuse.

He's even in one of the group FAQs. As a troll.
http://badtux.net/bob-faq.html

Be careful who you say you agree with.

It is clear that Bob is an idiot

Just for the record, you understand... I absolutely, categorically *do not*
agree with Bob's views on this subject (I thought I'd already made this
clear when I said..."I don't know this "Bob" character, but I have
repeatedly said that I don't
advocate outdoor access for all cats")

Jeannie


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"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...
"Phil P." wrote in message

I don't know this "Bob" character, but I have repeatedly said that I
don't
advocate outdoor access for all cats. What I *have* said is that a risk
assessment has to be made and the pros and cons assessed. To be honest,
I
don't see what is so radical and reactionary in this standpoint.

I would say however, that probably the majority of cat owners in
Britain, in
Europe as a whole, would find your views control freaky and neurotic
and would tend to agree more with this Bob character. Cultural
differences
certainly appear to play a large part in this debate.


Don't say that.
Go Google "Bob Brenchley" in Google Groups.

Really.

The man thinks cats are better off dead than indoors and accuses ALL
indoor-
only cat owners of animal abuse.

He's even in one of the group FAQs. As a troll.
http://badtux.net/bob-faq.html

Be careful who you say you agree with.

It is clear that Bob is an idiot

Just for the record, you understand... I absolutely, categorically *do not*
agree with Bob's views on this subject (I thought I'd already made this
clear when I said..."I don't know this "Bob" character, but I have
repeatedly said that I don't
advocate outdoor access for all cats")

Jeannie


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"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ospam enlightened us with...

Jeannie, I understood what you were saying and you are right, on ngs
like this
there is a lot of arguing back and forth due to cultural differences.
This is
true not only of the indoor/outdoor issue but very true as well of the
declawing issue. I find it sometimes a bit embarrassing that some of the
American posters will insist that the U.S. viewpoint on animal care must
be the
most enlightened view in the world.



The thing is...
Why am I (and you) allowed to be so vehementally anti-declaw, with no room
for arguments (it's wrong, period, end of discussion), but when we try to
be
anti-outside or anti-roaming, all of a sudden we're being superior...
Hrm.


Kaeli, I think you have made some eloquent posts in this thread and have not
come across as feeling superior at all (unlike some), there are, after all,
two sides to this debate.

The other thing is that de-clawing is illegal here, so us Brits are
obviously already superior to you Americans in that respect
:-) (LOL at my own joke, how sad...)

Jeannie


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"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ospam enlightened us with...

Jeannie, I understood what you were saying and you are right, on ngs
like this
there is a lot of arguing back and forth due to cultural differences.
This is
true not only of the indoor/outdoor issue but very true as well of the
declawing issue. I find it sometimes a bit embarrassing that some of the
American posters will insist that the U.S. viewpoint on animal care must
be the
most enlightened view in the world.



The thing is...
Why am I (and you) allowed to be so vehementally anti-declaw, with no room
for arguments (it's wrong, period, end of discussion), but when we try to
be
anti-outside or anti-roaming, all of a sudden we're being superior...
Hrm.


Kaeli, I think you have made some eloquent posts in this thread and have not
come across as feeling superior at all (unlike some), there are, after all,
two sides to this debate.

The other thing is that de-clawing is illegal here, so us Brits are
obviously already superior to you Americans in that respect
:-) (LOL at my own joke, how sad...)

Jeannie


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To: itty
Sherry

Sounds like your next step is to stand on a streetcorner and scream...I defend
my right to have my own views. Damn anyone else!