Just read about what is really in cat food

First you say that "very few" use meat meal, yet you then say "hundreds"
of foods were tested.

Hundreds of foods were tested--just in case. Yet nothing was found. But
that's not good enough for you even though you "don't have an opinion". Just
continue to ignore the facts and think it's all a conspiracy if that's what
floats your boat.

Your reading comprehension skills are atrocious. I've been following this
thread and trying to stay out and keep finding myself reminding you to read
the whole post before you reply. She *said*... "I have not entered the
cats/dogs in pet food debate *other than* to say it is not illegal [...]


Cheryl, you're parsing words. Once she jumps into the debate by challenging my
assertions, she's in it no matter how she tries to "wiggle" out. You can be in
a debate and not have your mind made up yet. The fact that she has become rude
and insulting along the way speaks volumes about her.

I try not to insult others just because I disagree w/ someone. I've said it is
illegal to use dogs and cats in pet foods. Megan doesn't think so. Others
have made wild allegations and then can't back them up w/ actual times, dates,
places, examples, names, etc. Then it all degenerates into insults and name
calling. Gimme a break.

Your reading comprehension skills are atrocious. I've been following this
thread and trying to stay out and keep finding myself reminding you to read
the whole post before you reply. She *said*... "I have not entered the
cats/dogs in pet food debate *other than* to say it is not illegal [...]


Cheryl, you're parsing words. Once she jumps into the debate by challenging my
assertions, she's in it no matter how she tries to "wiggle" out. You can be in
a debate and not have your mind made up yet. The fact that she has become rude
and insulting along the way speaks volumes about her.

I try not to insult others just because I disagree w/ someone. I've said it is
illegal to use dogs and cats in pet foods. Megan doesn't think so. Others
have made wild allegations and then can't back them up w/ actual times, dates,
places, examples, names, etc. Then it all degenerates into insults and name
calling. Gimme a break.

To set the record straight, my first book, "Food Pets Die For:" was
published in 1997. My second book, "Protect Your Pet:" was published
in 2001 and the updated edition of "Food Pets Die For:" was published
in January 2003.

As for dogs and cats being used in pet food, yes, there is proof.
Valley Protein, a East Coast rendering plant that picked up euthanized
pets from a number of shelters in the area, rendered them and this
rendered material was being sold to pet food companies, one of them
being Purina.

Another large rendering plant in Quebec admitted in early 2001, that
they were rendering the pets and this material was being sold to pet
food companies. They decided, because of bad publicity, they would
cease this practice. I contacted the Ministry of Agriculture in
Quebec and asked if others were still under taking this practice. The
reply was "Yes", Maple Leaf Foods which also owns Rothsay rendering
and Shur-Gain pet food.

Anyone who thinks this is not happening better get a reality check.
Again, THIS PRACTICE IS NOT ILLEGAL.

Ann Martin



(GAUBSTER2) wrote,

If that label fit me, I would go around perpuating these kinds of myths. I'm
simply trying to set the record straight and you don't want to believe it.
Whatever.

If you can't post accurately, don't post at all. Ann Martin first
started investigating the pet food industry in 1990, and her book was
first published in 1997.

You're full of crap. DO YOUR RESEARCH. LOOK IT UP. I've seen the book before
and it was originally published in the late '70s (I want to say 1978 or '79)
She has simply re-released her book. I don't know why you are being so
argumentative. Do you really believe that dead dogs and cats are ground up and
used in pet foods? Please answer that question. Then prove it. Please tell
me and all the others, which companies to stay away from. Which companies are
the biggest offenders? And then perhaps, since you feel so strongly about the
subject, you would like to start a campaign to get "them" to change their
tactics.

To set the record straight, my first book, "Food Pets Die For:" was
published in 1997. My second book, "Protect Your Pet:" was published
in 2001 and the updated edition of "Food Pets Die For:" was published
in January 2003.

As for dogs and cats being used in pet food, yes, there is proof.
Valley Protein, a East Coast rendering plant that picked up euthanized
pets from a number of shelters in the area, rendered them and this
rendered material was being sold to pet food companies, one of them
being Purina.

Another large rendering plant in Quebec admitted in early 2001, that
they were rendering the pets and this material was being sold to pet
food companies. They decided, because of bad publicity, they would
cease this practice. I contacted the Ministry of Agriculture in
Quebec and asked if others were still under taking this practice. The
reply was "Yes", Maple Leaf Foods which also owns Rothsay rendering
and Shur-Gain pet food.

Anyone who thinks this is not happening better get a reality check.
Again, THIS PRACTICE IS NOT ILLEGAL.

Ann Martin



(GAUBSTER2) wrote,

If that label fit me, I would go around perpuating these kinds of myths. I'm
simply trying to set the record straight and you don't want to believe it.
Whatever.

If you can't post accurately, don't post at all. Ann Martin first
started investigating the pet food industry in 1990, and her book was
first published in 1997.

You're full of crap. DO YOUR RESEARCH. LOOK IT UP. I've seen the book before
and it was originally published in the late '70s (I want to say 1978 or '79)
She has simply re-released her book. I don't know why you are being so
argumentative. Do you really believe that dead dogs and cats are ground up and
used in pet foods? Please answer that question. Then prove it. Please tell
me and all the others, which companies to stay away from. Which companies are
the biggest offenders? And then perhaps, since you feel so strongly about the
subject, you would like to start a campaign to get "them" to change their
tactics.

Gaubster2 wrote:

Just as I expected. A link that doesn't
work. This also does nothing to prove
your claim that a specific company,
namely OMH, uses bacteria fromfeces in
their foods. Cite?

There's something called "real life". I
don't sit in front of my computer and
think that the internet is all there is
to life. Try this:
www.hc-sc.qc.ca/pphb-dqspsp/msds-ftss/ms


Just as I expected. A link that doesn't work.

If you would actually go out into the
real world--the one OUTSIDE your front
door and pick up a bag of OMH and look
at the ingredient's list you would see
exactly what I'm talking about.

*You* are making the claim. YOU explain what you're talking about. As
usual you are expecting others to back up your claims for you.

I'm absolutely positive that the book I
saw in the late 80s was by "Ann Martin"
and was published in/about 1979.
First it was the 60's/70's, then the
70's then the late 70's almost 1980, now
it's the late 80's. Which is it? If you
are certain you saw this book then you
shouldn't have a problem providing an
ISBN hmmmm? A mention of it somewhere,
anywhere hmmmmmm? A title perhaps?

You're spinning again.

No, that's what you said.

The way you go on
about reading comprehension, you'd think
you would do a little of it yourself: In
the late 80s I saw a book from Ann
Martin entitled, "Foods Pet Die For". I
didn't memorize the ISBN, nobody would.
It was copyrighted 1979. Her research
was done prior (obviously) to that time
in order for it to be in her book.

And still you have not provided any evidence that this is true. Since
Ms. Martin has been kind enough to join the discussion and give details
about her experiences and research, why don't you ask her yourself?
(although I'm sure you'll tell her she's wrong, too.)

Do you have *any* comprehension
skills?
If I haven't formed an opinion as to
whether there are companies that use
dogs and cats in pet food how could I
possibly point a finger at a company for
using them? Your ill logic is
astounding.

You're staddling the fence. I'm trying
to pin you down on your opinion by
asking you a direct question.

I have already told you I haven't enough evidence to form an opinion one
way or another. At this point I believe it's "possible." I am going to
buy Ms. Martin's book later today and see what she says and look at her
cites and documentation, which she seems more than happy to provide,
unlike yourself and apparently the U.S. government.

You argue
strongly that it "happens" since you
don't think that it is illegal and yet
you don't have any idea if it ever does
"happen". You want to have both sides of
the issue.

No, again you can't comprehend. Saying it is not illegal to use cats and
dogs in pet food is NOT the same as arguing "strongly" that pet food
contains cats and dogs. I have done no such thing. Saying it is
"possible" is not even remotely the same thing as saying "it happens."
If you believe that then quote me where I "argued strongly" that "it
happens."

If it happens,
=A0please tell me which companies/products
=A0are doing it.

See above. Good god, I don't think I
have ever come across someone with such
an astounding lack of comprehension
skills.

Perhaps you should read "How to Win
Friends, and Influence People", and no,
I don't have the ISBN number. I'm sure
you can look it up on the internet
though.

So, again, you can't provide a source and expect someone else to look it
up. Typical.


Actually, maybe you can be so kind as to
test a theory of mine: Who did you vote
for in the last Presidential Election?

Ah, the last resort of someone on the losing end of an argument - when
you can't provide facts attack someone's politics.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Gaubster2 wrote:

Just as I expected. A link that doesn't
work. This also does nothing to prove
your claim that a specific company,
namely OMH, uses bacteria fromfeces in
their foods. Cite?

There's something called "real life". I
don't sit in front of my computer and
think that the internet is all there is
to life. Try this:
www.hc-sc.qc.ca/pphb-dqspsp/msds-ftss/ms


Just as I expected. A link that doesn't work.

If you would actually go out into the
real world--the one OUTSIDE your front
door and pick up a bag of OMH and look
at the ingredient's list you would see
exactly what I'm talking about.

*You* are making the claim. YOU explain what you're talking about. As
usual you are expecting others to back up your claims for you.

I'm absolutely positive that the book I
saw in the late 80s was by "Ann Martin"
and was published in/about 1979.
First it was the 60's/70's, then the
70's then the late 70's almost 1980, now
it's the late 80's. Which is it? If you
are certain you saw this book then you
shouldn't have a problem providing an
ISBN hmmmm? A mention of it somewhere,
anywhere hmmmmmm? A title perhaps?

You're spinning again.

No, that's what you said.

The way you go on
about reading comprehension, you'd think
you would do a little of it yourself: In
the late 80s I saw a book from Ann
Martin entitled, "Foods Pet Die For". I
didn't memorize the ISBN, nobody would.
It was copyrighted 1979. Her research
was done prior (obviously) to that time
in order for it to be in her book.

And still you have not provided any evidence that this is true. Since
Ms. Martin has been kind enough to join the discussion and give details
about her experiences and research, why don't you ask her yourself?
(although I'm sure you'll tell her she's wrong, too.)

Do you have *any* comprehension
skills?
If I haven't formed an opinion as to
whether there are companies that use
dogs and cats in pet food how could I
possibly point a finger at a company for
using them? Your ill logic is
astounding.

You're staddling the fence. I'm trying
to pin you down on your opinion by
asking you a direct question.

I have already told you I haven't enough evidence to form an opinion one
way or another. At this point I believe it's "possible." I am going to
buy Ms. Martin's book later today and see what she says and look at her
cites and documentation, which she seems more than happy to provide,
unlike yourself and apparently the U.S. government.

You argue
strongly that it "happens" since you
don't think that it is illegal and yet
you don't have any idea if it ever does
"happen". You want to have both sides of
the issue.

No, again you can't comprehend. Saying it is not illegal to use cats and
dogs in pet food is NOT the same as arguing "strongly" that pet food
contains cats and dogs. I have done no such thing. Saying it is
"possible" is not even remotely the same thing as saying "it happens."
If you believe that then quote me where I "argued strongly" that "it
happens."

If it happens,
=A0please tell me which companies/products
=A0are doing it.

See above. Good god, I don't think I
have ever come across someone with such
an astounding lack of comprehension
skills.

Perhaps you should read "How to Win
Friends, and Influence People", and no,
I don't have the ISBN number. I'm sure
you can look it up on the internet
though.

So, again, you can't provide a source and expect someone else to look it
up. Typical.


Actually, maybe you can be so kind as to
test a theory of mine: Who did you vote
for in the last Presidential Election?

Ah, the last resort of someone on the losing end of an argument - when
you can't provide facts attack someone's politics.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

(Ann Martin) wrote in message om...
Good Morning,

My name is Ann Martin and I am the author of "Protect Your Pet:" and
"Food Pets Die For:" I've just become aware of your discussion on the
testng of dry commercial dog food undertaken by the FDA/CVM.

This study was undertaken because veterinarians reported they required
more of the drug, sodium pentobarbital, to euthanize dogs. The study
was two part, ascertain levels of this drug in pet food and undertake
DNA testing to find if dogs and cats were used as sources of protein
in the foods. If you read the report on the sodium pentobarbital
testing very carefully you will find that, according to their data,
many dogs would be ingesting toxic levels of this drug.


With all due respect the statement above is simply, and patently,
false from every possible perspective. At no time were "toxic levels"
of pentobarbital found in ANY commercial food. The highest level
discovered was in a Heinz Kibbles & Bits product with 25.1 parts per
BILLION - nowhere near anything close to a "toxic dose".

The issue here is one of reality, not one of extreme far out
possibilities. Pet foods which are labelled to contain chicken, lamb,
beef, etc cannot contain dead dogs and cats. While you may find some
lower priced foods with the generic "meat meal" ingredient, they are
rare to non-existant in the premium pet food business. Even those pet
foods which used the generic term "meat meal" cannot in any way to be
said to definitively contain dead dogs and cats. Regardless of the DNA
findings in the report, pet foods that label thier ingredients as a
specific meat meal (chicken, beef etc.) do not contain dead dogs and
cats.

(Ann Martin) wrote in message om...
Good Morning,

My name is Ann Martin and I am the author of "Protect Your Pet:" and
"Food Pets Die For:" I've just become aware of your discussion on the
testng of dry commercial dog food undertaken by the FDA/CVM.

This study was undertaken because veterinarians reported they required
more of the drug, sodium pentobarbital, to euthanize dogs. The study
was two part, ascertain levels of this drug in pet food and undertake
DNA testing to find if dogs and cats were used as sources of protein
in the foods. If you read the report on the sodium pentobarbital
testing very carefully you will find that, according to their data,
many dogs would be ingesting toxic levels of this drug.


With all due respect the statement above is simply, and patently,
false from every possible perspective. At no time were "toxic levels"
of pentobarbital found in ANY commercial food. The highest level
discovered was in a Heinz Kibbles & Bits product with 25.1 parts per
BILLION - nowhere near anything close to a "toxic dose".

The issue here is one of reality, not one of extreme far out
possibilities. Pet foods which are labelled to contain chicken, lamb,
beef, etc cannot contain dead dogs and cats. While you may find some
lower priced foods with the generic "meat meal" ingredient, they are
rare to non-existant in the premium pet food business. Even those pet
foods which used the generic term "meat meal" cannot in any way to be
said to definitively contain dead dogs and cats. Regardless of the DNA
findings in the report, pet foods that label thier ingredients as a
specific meat meal (chicken, beef etc.) do not contain dead dogs and
cats.

wrote in message ...
Steve wrote:

Reality is that the vast majority of pet
foods use a described meat meal -
chicken, lamb, beef, kangaroo, ostrich,
duck etc. Very few use the generic term
"meat meal". *AND* even in that case
FDA and USDA testing proved that there
was no trace of cat or dog DNA in the
hundreds of foods tested.

First you say that "very few" use meat meal, yet you then say "hundreds"
of foods were tested.

Very few premiun pet food contain the generic term "meat meal"

Hundreds of foods were tested, including ones which contained generic
meat meals and those that contained chicken, beef etc.




So, accuracy of such testing notwithstanding (and apparently the tests
were developed by the testers and not an outside source), which is it?

The testing was conducted by the USDA and FDA


Hundreds of foods that contain "meat meal" or hundreds of foods that
contain different types of meals?

Answered above

If the foods tested contained specific types of animal meals - poultry
or beef for example - then wouldn't testing for dog/cat DNA be moot
other than to confirm that the meals were as described? It would be easy
to say Brand X did not contain dog/cat DNA, but if the meat ingredient
is chicken meal of course you would not expect to find it.

Exactly my point - It would be illegal for a food to be adulterated
with an ingredient that is not the ingredient claimed. You cannot
subsitute dead dogs and cats for chicken, beef, poprk etc. Unless the
food contains the generic term "meat meal" it cannot possibly contain
dead dogs and cats.


Can you provide a list of the foods that were tested?


I will try to copy paste the list below.

Bites and Bones
High Protein
Adult Formulation
Kibbles and Munchy Morsels
Puppy Formulation
Bite Size Meal Chicken and Rice
Kibble Select
Adult
Kibbles Dog Food
Come and Get it--Beef, Chicken, Liver
Alpo Lamb Meal Rice and Barley
Alpo Complete Puppy
KenL Ration Gravy Train Beef Liver and Bacon
Kibbles N Bits Original, Chicken and Beef
Kibbles and Bits Beefy Bits
Kibbles and Bits Puppy
KenL Ration Choice Blend
Reward Dinner Rounds
Science Diet Senior, 7+, small bites
Science Diet Large Breed Adult
Science Diet Large Breed Canine, Puppies
Science Diet Sensitive Stomach
Science Diet Sensitive Skin
Lamb and Rice Formula
Easy to Digest
Lifestages Senior Lamb and Rice
Special Diet Formulation 300
Special Diet Formulation 200
Puppy Formula, Beef Flavor
Premium Chicken and Rice
Puppy Formula, Chicken and Rice
High Performance Chicken and Rice
Lean Formula
Meaty Chunks and Gravy
Meaty Chunks Mealtime
MealTime Large Crunchy Bites
Mealtime with Lamb and Rice
Puppy
Master Diet Puppy Formulation
Master Diet Adult Formulation
Beef and Rice, Adult Formulation
Dog Chow Little Bites
Puppy chow, Beef Flavor
Kibbles and Chunks Beef Flavor
Dog Chow Senior 7+
One Beef and Rice
Butchers Blend
Dog Food Chunk Style
High Protein Dog Meal
High Protein
Puppy food
Tasty Nuggets
Small Bites
Lamb Meal and Rice
Kibbles and Munchy Chews
Select Adult Dog Formulation (Nutra Balance)
Gravy Style Dog Food
Chunk Style Dog Food
Total High Energy Chicken and Rice
Total Pet Kibbles
Krunchy Kibble
Krunchy Kibble
Bite Size Dog Food
Bite Size Meal
Bite Size Meal
Fieldmaster
Fieldmaster
Come'n Get It
Alpo
Alpo
Come'n Get It
Kibbles 'n Bits Jerky
Kibbles 'n Bits Jerky
Kibbles 'n Bits 'n Bits 'n Bits
Kibbles 'n Bits 'n Bits 'n Bits
Kibbles 'n Bits Puppy
Kibbles 'n Bits Lean
Kibbles 'n Bits Lean
Gravy Train Beef, Liver and Bacon Flavor
Gravy Train Beef, Liver and Bacon Flavor
Gravy Train
Gravy Train
Premium Dog Food
Premium Dog Food
Premium
Premium
Krunchy Bites & Bones
Premium Formula with Chicken Protein and Rice
Premium Formula with Chicken Protein and Rice
High Performance with Chicken Protein and Rice
High Performance with Chicken Protein and Rice
Krunchy Bites & Bones
Lean Formula
Lean Formula
Meaty Chunks and Gravy
Meaty Chunks and Gravy
Dinner Rounds Soft Dry Dog Food
Mealtime
Mealtime
Meaty Chunks with Rice and Vegetables
Meaty Chunks with Rice and Vegetables
Chunk Style
Chunk Style
Beef and Rice Adult
Beef and Rice Adult
Beef and Rice Puppy
Beef and Rice Puppy
Mainstay
Mainstay
Dog Chow
Little Bites
Little Bites
High Pro
High Pro
Grrravy
Grrravy
Dog Chow Senior
Dog Chow Senior
Kibbles and Cheezy Chews
Kibbles and Cheezy Chews
Kibbles and Chunks
Kibbles and Chunks
Butcher's Blend
Butcher's Blend
Dog Chow
Fit & Trim
Fit & Trim
Dinner Rounds Dog Food
Dinner Rounds Dog Food
High Protein Dog Meal
High Protein Dog Meal
Chunk Style
Chunk Style
Gravy Style Dog Food
Gravy Style Dog Food
Chunk Style
Gravy Style Dog Food
Gravy Style Dog Food
Chunk Style
Chunk Style
Chunk Premium Quality
Chunk Premium Quality
Bite Size Ration
Bite Size Ration
Chunky and Moist
Puppy Food
Crunchy Dog Food
Gravy Style Dog Food
High Protein Dog Food
Kibbles Variety Mix