OT Nursery rhymes

Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?

A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was getting
on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a
racist song.

I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.
FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught
myself.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
What do you think?

Tweed

On 8/18/2013 7:09 PM, Christina Websell wrote:
Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?

A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was getting
on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a
racist song.

I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.
FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught
myself.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
What do you think?

Tweed

Not in the least, but some people will find offence at almost anything.
Look at the fuss in the US over 'niggardly' a few years ago! And I
recently read that 'brown-bag lunch' was a racist phrase, which totally
puzzled me until someone explained that at some time somewhere in the US
people were judged by whether or not their skin was darker than a brown
paper bag - which has absolutely nothing to do with using such a bag,
most appropriately, to carry your lunch.

Anyway, although as with many nursery rhymes the origins are uncertain,
it probably pre-dates the period when racial allusions would be likely -
although I note from google that your neighbour is not the only person
to think the racial allusions exist.

I think it's just a rhyme about sheep.

--
Cheryl

On 8/18/2013 5:39 PM, Christina Websell wrote:
Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?

A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was getting
on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a
racist song.

I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.
FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught
myself.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
What do you think?

Tweed


I don't think so. I often walk around the house singing little ditties
and don't think a thing about them.

Jill

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
On 8/18/2013 7:09 PM, Christina Websell wrote:
Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?

A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was
getting
on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a
racist song.

I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.
FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught
myself.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
What do you think?

Tweed

Not in the least, but some people will find offence at almost anything.
Look at the fuss in the US over 'niggardly' a few years ago! And I
recently read that 'brown-bag lunch' was a racist phrase, which totally
puzzled me until someone explained that at some time somewhere in the US
people were judged by whether or not their skin was darker than a brown
paper bag - which has absolutely nothing to do with using such a bag, most
appropriately, to carry your lunch.

Anyway, although as with many nursery rhymes the origins are uncertain, it
probably pre-dates the period when racial allusions would be likely -
although I note from google that your neighbour is not the only person to
think the racial allusions exist.

I think it's just a rhyme about sheep.

--
Cheryl

I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago. Almost every baby
is taught this nursery rhyme and I was shocked to realise it could be
considered offensive.
Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"
supposedly alludes to the plague.
"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"

Tweed

"jmcquown" wrote in message
...
On 8/18/2013 5:39 PM, Christina Websell wrote:
Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?

A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was
getting
on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a
racist song.

I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.
FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught
myself.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
What do you think?

Tweed


I don't think so. I often walk around the house singing little ditties
and don't think a thing about them.

Jill

I've thought about the lyrics of baa baa black sheep and I suppose if you
were looking for racial insinuations you could find them in there.
However, like Cheryl, I think it pre-dates any idea of that.

Most nursery rhymes go back centuries and so do some of the songs we were
taught at school like "London's burning, London's burning, fetch water,
fetch water, FIRE FIRE" which refers to the Great Fire of London in 1666.

On Sunday, August 18, 2013 7:52:32 PM UTC-4, Christina Websell wrote:
"Cheryl" wrote in message

...

On 8/18/2013 7:09 PM, Christina Websell wrote:

Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?



A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike

singing it -don't ask me why.

He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was

getting

on my nerves.

I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a

racist song.



I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.

FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught

myself.

Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?

What do you think?



Tweed



Not in the least, but some people will find offence at almost anything.

Look at the fuss in the US over 'niggardly' a few years ago! And I

recently read that 'brown-bag lunch' was a racist phrase, which totally

puzzled me until someone explained that at some time somewhere in the US

people were judged by whether or not their skin was darker than a brown

paper bag - which has absolutely nothing to do with using such a bag, most

appropriately, to carry your lunch.



Anyway, although as with many nursery rhymes the origins are uncertain, it

probably pre-dates the period when racial allusions would be likely -

although I note from google that your neighbour is not the only person to

think the racial allusions exist.



I think it's just a rhyme about sheep.



--

Cheryl



I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago. Almost every baby

is taught this nursery rhyme and I was shocked to realise it could be

considered offensive.

Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"

supposedly alludes to the plague.

"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"



Tweed

Over here, across the pond, it was:

Ring around the rosie
Pocket full of Posies
Ashes, Ashes, we all fall down

According to wikipedia, the breakdown is thus:

The rhyme has often been associated with the Great Plague which happened in England in 1665, or with earlier outbreaks of the Black Death in England. Interpreters of the rhyme before the Second World War make no mention of this; by 1951, however, it seems to have become well established as an explanation for the form of the rhyme that had become standard in the United Kingdom. Peter and Iona Opie, the leading authorities on nursery rhymes, remarked:

The invariable sneezing and falling down in modern English versions have given would-be origin finders the opportunity to say that the rhyme dates back to the Great Plague. A rosy rash, they allege, was a symptom of the plague, and posies of herbs were carried as protection and to ward off the smell of the disease. Sneezing or coughing was a final fatal symptom, and "all fall down" was exactly what happened.

The line Ashes, Ashes in colonial versions of the rhyme is claimed to refer variously to cremation of the bodies, the burning of victims' houses, or blackening of their skin, and the theory has been adapted to be applied to other versions of the rhyme. In its various forms, the interpretation has entered into popular culture and has been used elsewhere to make oblique reference to the plague.

Many folklore scholars regard the theory as baseless for several reasons:

The plague explanation did not appear until the mid-twentieth century.
The symptoms described do not fit especially well with the Great Plague..
The great variety of forms makes it unlikely that the modern form is the most ancient one, and the words on which the interpretation are based are not found in many of the earliest records of the rhyme (see above).
European and 19th-century versions of the rhyme suggest that this "fall" was not a literal falling down, but a curtsy or other form of bending movement that was common in other dramatic singing games.

Christina Websell wrote:
Is Baa, baa, black sheep racist?

A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was getting
on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's a
racist song.

I've considered the lyrics and I'm really not sure now.
FGS sake, I taught my small brothers nursery rhymes that I'd been taught
myself.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
What do you think?

Tweed

I think that's working awfully hard to attribute a meaning that was
never intended! When will human beings stop giving racial differences a
negative meaning? (Skin color and ethnic appearance should be simply an
additional factor in describing a person to someone - no insult
implied.) It's something adults teach children - I remember the first
time I encountered a little African American boy in kindergarten. I'd
never seen a black person before, so wanted to know if it rubbed off.
He held out his hand to show me it did not, my curiosity was satisfied,
and we were henceforth friends. Kids are much readier than adults to
accept "different" minus any negative connotation.

Christina Websell wrote:


I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago. Almost every baby
is taught this nursery rhyme and I was shocked to realise it could be
considered offensive.
Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"
supposedly alludes to the plague.
"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"

Tweed

And in America we learned it "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down" -
presumably an allusion to the fact that corpses of plague victims were
collected and cremated.

On 2013-08-19 10:59 PM, EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:


Christina Websell wrote:


I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago. Almost
every baby is taught this nursery rhyme and I was shocked to realise
it could be considered offensive.
Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"
supposedly alludes to the plague.
"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"

Tweed

And in America we learned it "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down" -
presumably an allusion to the fact that corpses of plague victims were
collected and cremated.

But they weren't cremated - they were buried in mass graves called
plague pits. They didn't do cremation during that period in the UK as
far as I know. I knew the 'ashes' version, but thought it was just a
natural variation in something transmitted orally.

--
Cheryl

"The Other Guy" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 00:52:32 +0100, "Christina Websell"
wrote:

I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago.

http://www.rhymes.org.uk/baa_baa_black_sheep.htm

Thanks for that link, it confirms what I thought.

I wouldn't like the idea that a 10 year old was deliberately riding his bike
singing a racist song outside an Asian neighbour's house and I doubt that he
did.
I suspect he has a small sibling and the song got into his head (earworm)
Anyway, it shocked him to be accosted by an adult accusing him of singing a
racist song and he shut up immediately.
I know very well how black people suffered from white supremacy and hold
huge resentment even now, but it might be time to let it go.
The word "black" is not owned by them. Although I acknowledge that I am not
black and can never truly experience racism, this continual thing about not
using the word doesn't help one bit.
I don't think the child meant anything by it, he just had a tune in his
head, although tbh he was annoying me too from the constant repetition
whilst I was pruning in my front garden.
I might have told him to shut up in a very few minutes myself.
You can only hear baa baa black sheep a hundred times before it's time to
say "either you stop, or I'll take you back to your mother..and tell her she
needs to keep you nearer your own house and not annoying your neighbours."

What's the consensus then?
Is baa baa black sheep racist?
I don't think it is.

I had the most severe anti-racist training for my job that could be
imagined. Some white people broke down under it and so did Asian colleagues
who wept and said "this is just going to make it worse"
In fact it had to be stopped as neither race could take it.
The whites were immediately sidelined by the presenter speaking in Urdu. I
knew immediately what he was getting at so I kept quiet but some didn't and
said "we can't understand you" which was a great opportunity for him.
A colleague who spoke Urdu tried to translate for her colleagues and was
told to "shut up"
Then we got a video about how white people used to bury Australian
aboriginal children in sand and kick their heads off playing football, to
prove how racist white people are.

I think it all needs to be let go now. I try not be racist and am sick of
apologising for what happened with slavery.
It was not my fault. My ancestors were not slave traders, let's move on.

Tweed