OT Nursery rhymes

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
m...



Christina Websell wrote:


I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago. Almost every
baby is taught this nursery rhyme and I was shocked to realise it could be
considered offensive.
Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"
supposedly alludes to the plague.
"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"

Tweed

And in America we learned it "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down" -
presumably an allusion to the fact that corpses of plague victims were
collected and cremated.

~~~~~~
Yes, that's how I learned it as a child. Also, the first line I learned was
"Ring around the rosie." I did not connect the poem to cremation. In fact,
I don't think I even gave any thought to what the words might mean--it was
just a little nonsense jingle, as far as I was concerned.

MaryL

"MaryL" wrote in message ...



"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote in message
m...



Christina Websell wrote:


I think it's a rhyme about the wool trade from years ago. Almost every
baby is taught this nursery rhyme and I was shocked to realise it could be
considered offensive.
Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"
supposedly alludes to the plague.
"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"

Tweed

And in America we learned it "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down" -
presumably an allusion to the fact that corpses of plague victims were
collected and cremated.

~~~~~~
Yes, that's how I learned it as a child. Also, the first line I learned was
"Ring around the rosie." I did not connect the poem to cremation. In fact,
I don't think I even gave any thought to what the words might mean--it was
just a little nonsense jingle, as far as I was concerned.

MaryL

~~~~~~~~
Here is a Wikipedia article that describes some of the history of this
nursery rhyme
(and includes variations of lyrics in several countries). This article does
point out that
the plague explanation did not appear until the mid-twentieth century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_a_Ring_o'_Roses

MaryL

"Jack Campin" wrote in message
...
A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was
getting on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's
a racist song.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?

It is if the kid on the bike meant the Asian family to hear it that way.
And he probably did. The origin and literal meaning of the song don't
come into it.


I don't think a ten year old strictly trained about racism would even do it.
|Your view may differ.

"Jack Campin" wrote in message
...
A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was
getting on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's
a racist song.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
It is if the kid on the bike meant the Asian family to hear it that way.
And he probably did. The origin and literal meaning of the song don't
come into it.
At age ten? I really don't think so, unless he's been indoctrinated
with racism at home.

Most racists do learn racism at that age or earlier, and all racists
indoctrinate their kids. I've seen lots of little thugs at it round
here.


Well this is the first time. Shall I tell you what? I am not going to
consider that the small boy was racist.

You tell me that you consider me racist about chinese products that killed
American cats. If I can help it no food from china will touch my boy's lips.

Christina Websell wrote:
"Jack Campin" wrote in message
...
A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was
getting on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's
a racist song.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
It is if the kid on the bike meant the Asian family to hear it that way.
And he probably did. The origin and literal meaning of the song don't
come into it.
At age ten? I really don't think so, unless he's been indoctrinated
with racism at home.
Most racists do learn racism at that age or earlier, and all racists
indoctrinate their kids. I've seen lots of little thugs at it round
here.


Well this is the first time. Shall I tell you what? I am not going to
consider that the small boy was racist.

You tell me that you consider me racist about chinese products that killed
American cats. If I can help it no food from china will touch my boy's lips.

But that's not being "racist", that's just using common sense! There
have been recalls of pet foods (and human foods) originating on our own
countries, too - you just don't buy them again until you're sure they're
safe.

On 8/28/2013 4:48 PM, EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:


Christina Websell wrote:
"Jack Campin" wrote in message
...
A small boy of about 10 was riding around outside my house on his
bike
singing it -don't ask me why.
He did it so much I was almost up to tell him to stop because he was
getting on my nerves.
I was surprised to have an Asian neighbour come out and tell him it's
a racist song.
Is baa baa black sheep, have you any wool, racist?
It is if the kid on the bike meant the Asian family to hear it that
way.
And he probably did. The origin and literal meaning of the song don't
come into it.
At age ten? I really don't think so, unless he's been indoctrinated
with racism at home.
Most racists do learn racism at that age or earlier, and all racists
indoctrinate their kids. I've seen lots of little thugs at it round
here.


Well this is the first time. Shall I tell you what? I am not going
to consider that the small boy was racist.

You tell me that you consider me racist about chinese products that
killed American cats. If I can help it no food from china will touch
my boy's lips.

But that's not being "racist", that's just using common sense! There
have been recalls of pet foods (and human foods) originating on our own
countries, too - you just don't buy them again until you're sure they're
safe.

Exactly! It has nothing to do with racism. Or Chinese products. Or
recalled products. I'm not sure what the heck she's talking about now.

Jill

Christina Websell wrote:

It was truly horrible race training, designed I suppose to say "just look
at what you white people have done to us over the years"

They had to stop it. Most white people cried their hearts out and had
emotional problems afterwards. All the black people there said "this
doesn't help at all"

I was once in an "unlearning racism" group for white people which I found very
interesting. The underlying principle that was frequently stressed was that
"we are all basically good people". Whether or not you believe that, it is
a very good way to conduct a workshop where white people are looking at their
own racism, which is scary for most of us. If it's pointed out with
condemnation and shaming, as it was in your workshop, people are going to
be defensive and they'll deny having any prejudice. Nobody wants to be the
object of name-calling.

A couple of other important ideas that helped people open up and be more
honest about their beliefs and attitudes, fears, etc:

Racism can be unconscious. So even decent and well-meaning people could
be saying or doing things that they just don't realize are hurtful to people
of color. When that is pointed out to them, a good response is to apologize
for your ignorance and thank them for pointing it out. That might seem
counterintuitive to some people (*thank* them for calling me a racist??) but
consider it from the other person's point of view. If they're annoyed enough
to say something to you, you can safely assume that they've heard the same
thing 100 times before. It really gets old.

Plus, it takes a lot of nerve to speak up about something like that, and
many people feel too vulnerable (because they *are*). So that's why I
consider it a gift - someone has bothered to overcome their nervousness
about speaking up, mostly for their own benefit perhaps, but as a side
benefit, they've also warned me off of continuing to say boorish things
in public. I try to take it in the same spirit I would if someone were to
let me know that my fly is down.

You don't have to burn crosses on someone's lawn to be racist. I think a lot
of people recoil from that label because they're horrified by those overt
actions of hatred, so how could that apply to *them*? But it can often be
much more subtle than that, yet still feel oppressive on the receiving end.

I don't think white people should be too hard on themselves about it,
though, because it's almost impossible to escape it in a culture that
institutionalizes racism. We're all exposed to it and we all internalize
it. It doesn't mean we're sub-human. It does mean that we have an
opportunity to learn about something that we hadn't thought of before,
and to clean it up.

--
Joyce

I will not sniff at my male human's feet after he takes his shoes off,
freeze my mouth open in disgust and then sniff my private parts to compare
odors. -- Cat Resolutions

On 8/29/2013 10:48 PM, Bastette wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:

It was truly horrible race training, designed I suppose to say "just look
at what you white people have done to us over the years"

They had to stop it. Most white people cried their hearts out and had
emotional problems afterwards. All the black people there said "this
doesn't help at all"

I was once in an "unlearning racism" group for white people which I found very
interesting. The underlying principle that was frequently stressed was that
"we are all basically good people". Whether or not you believe that, it is
a very good way to conduct a workshop where white people are looking at their
own racism, which is scary for most of us. If it's pointed out with
condemnation and shaming, as it was in your workshop, people are going to
be defensive and they'll deny having any prejudice. Nobody wants to be the
object of name-calling.

(snippage)
No offense to anyone, but I must say this: I have no idea about the
colour of anyone's skin on this ng. I don't know if you're black, white
or green. Nor do I care. All I know is we love our cats and we talk
about them. That's all that really matters.

Jill

"jmcquown" wrote in message
...
On 8/29/2013 10:48 PM, Bastette wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:

It was truly horrible race training, designed I suppose to say "just
look
at what you white people have done to us over the years"

They had to stop it. Most white people cried their hearts out and
had
emotional problems afterwards. All the black people there said
"this
doesn't help at all"

I was once in an "unlearning racism" group for white people which I found
very
interesting. The underlying principle that was frequently stressed was
that
"we are all basically good people". Whether or not you believe that, it
is
a very good way to conduct a workshop where white people are looking at
their
own racism, which is scary for most of us. If it's pointed out with
condemnation and shaming, as it was in your workshop, people are going to
be defensive and they'll deny having any prejudice. Nobody wants to be
the
object of name-calling.

(snippage)
No offense to anyone, but I must say this: I have no idea about the
colour of anyone's skin on this ng. I don't know if you're black, white
or green. Nor do I care. All I know is we love our cats and we talk
about them. That's all that really matters.

Jill

Yes, and that's the kind of thing that should matter in real life. For some
reason, people seem to want to put everybody into categories, without
realizing that, almost always, whatever category you're talking about -
race, religion, gender, etc. - there are all kinds of people in that
category, but most of them are basically good.

Joy

Christina Websell wrote:

Some Nursery rhymes are from centuries ago. "Ring a ring of roses"
supposedly alludes to the plague.
"a-tishoo, a-tishoo we all fall down"

When I was a kid, we learned it as "ashes, ashes we all fall down,"
which I think is the usual way in the US, as someone else pointed out.
But for years, I used to remember it as, "A tissue, a tissue, we all
fall down." Later, I wondered how the sound of "ashes" got morphed
into "tissue" in my mind.

Thank you, Tweed, for clearing that up!

--
Joyce

The sun rose slowly, like a fiery furball coughed up uneasily onto a
sky-blue carpet by a giant unseen cat. -- Michael McGarel