Outdoor cat poisoning - report back

Ashley wrote:


He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

This is the part where you lost me. I thought you were reporting back
about risks in NZ. Who cares what he thinks about our way of doing it.
Isn't your point that we do things differently than you guys and for
good reason on both ends? I was starting to understand your position
better and to a degree still do, but clearly, as you have even
agreed...there *is* more of a risk here in the US...therefore people
choosing to keep cats indoors at all times makes sense.

Pam

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:01:01 +1200, "Ashley"
wrote:

anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on
their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between;

Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
the neighborhood.

Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she
had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free.
Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two
times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to
keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days.

Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands
there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is.




--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis"
wrote:


Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'. The
population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered
'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.


Well, apparently, it is a social bubble as well. No cars, no humans
who make mistakes.

And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small*
town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away.

Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway.


If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.


--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com

"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:01:55 GMT, "Mathew Kagis"
wrote:


Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
Islands... Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'.
The
population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be
considered
'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.


Well, apparently, it is a social bubble as well. No cars, no humans
who make mistakes.

And hey, I have lived out in the country, 10 miles from a very *small*
town. Nearest neighbor over 2 miles away.

Still doesn't mean they can't get hit by a car coming up the driveway.


If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.



And I am really frustrated that my concern for these animals
that really do not understand what they are up against with
regard to cars, poison, etc. must be twisted by Kagis and others.
In my opinion, people who do not take care of their cats are
cruel, vicious, and heinous. That will never change.

"Ashley" wrote in message
...

OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful.

What type of vet is he, a backwoods, large animal farm vet!? LOL!


His response:

Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
seen
a case. That's never.

"Never"? Are you his only client or does he have another? How can he be so
sure he's never seen a case... if he's never seen a case!? Has he ever seen
a case of acute renal failure? If so, how did he know with absolute
certainty that the ARF wasn't caused by EG toxicity, huh?

Even modern, mainstream vets cannot make a definite diagnosis without a
complete diagnostic work up and specialized EGT tests. (That's if he's even
heard of a EGT test kit) Even *with* a highly specialized EGT test kit, EG
usually can't be detected in the serum or urine after 72 hr. Thus his
"never" has little, if any credibility and should be taken with a large
grain of salt.


He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

Oh, keeping cats indoors isn't just an "American method"...

Peter Neville, *British* world renowned feline behaviorist:

"The human/cat relationship is based on many, often contrasting factors.
Indoors the cat is valued for its cleanliness, affection and playfulness,
and admired for its highly evolved play behaviour. Although not a group
hunter, the cat retains an enormous capacity to be sociable and accepts the
benefits of living in the human family and den without compromising its
self-determining and independent behaviour.

Bristol University, Department of Veterinary Medicine, Langford House,
Langford, Avon BS18 7DU, UK (Excerpted from: Handbook of Feline Medicine,
Willis J, Wolf A; Pergamon Press, Oxford OX3 OBW, England)
BSAVA; and Manual of Feline Behaviour, British Small Animal Veterinary
Association, Kingsley House. Church Lane. Shurdington, Cheltenham.
Gloucestershire GL51 5TQ


Dr. Nicholas Dodman, *British*, and the Director of the Behavior Clinic at
Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known
specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, states

"Its a lot safer to keep cats indoors. The average lifespan of an indoor
cat is around twelve to fourteen years, while outdoor cats are lucky to
reach double digits. I personally have lost three cats prematurely to
trauma over the past fifteen years. Two were struck by vehicles on a fairly
quiet road, and the other was killed by a roaming neighborhood dog. Because
of experiences like this I have certainly had cause to think long and hard
about letting future cats out. At present, our cats remain indoors where
they're safest" (Excerpted from the Cat Who Cried for Help).



"The hazards of the outdoors-automobiles, dogs, rival cats, poisonous
plants, infectious diseases, and fleas, to name but a few-are compelling
reasons to keep cats exclusively indoors. It is especially important to keep
declawed cats indoors, as they are poorly equipped to defend themselves or
escape danger by climbing trees. Indoor cats are unquestionably safer and
healthier than outdoor cats, and they make better household pets. They don't
endanger birds and other wildlife or bring home fleas or dead animals, nor
do they need frequent visits to the veterinarian to treat injuries sustained
in scraps with rival cats.

Screened-in porches or specially constructed window enclosures allow
indoor-only cats to sniff the fresh air, peruse the goings-on outside, and
bask in the sun. By regularly changing the indoor environment, you can help
keep your cat challenged-; strategically situated empty cardboard boxes or
plain brown shopping bags (minus the handles) can provide an old space with
new interest." Dr. James Richards, Director, Cornell Feline Health Center:



"Cats can be happily kept inside all the time. Many people do so and would
have it no other way. They say they have deeper and more satisfying
relationships with their cats and that those cats are healthier and live
longer. While living happily inside, cats are not getting hit by cars, being
injured in cat fights, catching infections such as feline leukemia virus and
feline immunodeficiency virus (Feline "AIDS"), being stolen, hunting and
possibly killing wildlife, urinating and defecating on neighbors'
properties, and harassing or being harassed by other animals. Clearly there
are many good reasons for permanently keeping cats indoors."

Robert J. Holmes, BVM&S, PhD, MRCVS, FACVSc, Animal Behaviour Clinic,
Malvern Vie 3 144, *Australia*. Excerpted from Cat Behavior and Training.



"Many cats born as strays and adopted as housecats adjust remarkably
quickly. Indeed, many stray cats that are adopted remain indoors permanently
without protest. Cats that live in temperate climates may naturally restrict
their outdoor activity during cold winter months. These individuals may
adapt more readily to being kept indoors permanently.

Provide a wide variety of toys that are attractive to your cat (not just to
you). Frequently play with your young cat so that it is less prone to seek
amusement elsewhere. It is particularly important to provide your cat with
additional outlets by playing with it and engaging in interactive diversions
you both will enjoy. Have your cat neutered at an appropriate age as
recommended by your veterinarian.

Although territorial roaming provides cats with exercise and mental
stimulation, cats can live a happy life while remaining indoors. The risk of
injury (from motor vehicle accidents, cat fights, or confrontations with
other animals), disease, and abuse far outweigh any possible benefit to your
cat. It is not cruel to restrict cats to an exclusively indoor existence.
Rather, the cruelty lies in exposing them to the dangers outside of a safe
home." Dr. Stefanie Schwartz, DVM, MSc,DACVB, Diplomate, American College
of Veterinary Behaviorists Director of Behavior Services, VCA South Shore
Animal Hospital, So. Weymouth, MA Clin. Asst. Prof., Tufts University School
of Veterinary Medicine.


Your vet is behind the times - but not by much - only about 40 or 50 years.

Here's some addition reading if you want to learn something -- which I
doubt:

http://www.maxshouse.com/outdoor_risks.htm

http://www.maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm

"Mathew Kagis" wrote in message
newscn4e.110900$KI2.70697@clgrps12...


Meghan: NZ does exist in an enviornmental bubble, it's an isolated set of
Islands...


Kinda like the "Never Never Land" where you never have to grow up, eh? Are
all the roads are made of yellow bricks, too? Maybe that's why cats don't
hit by cars - they're very easy to see against the yellow brick background!
LOL!


Almost all large mamals are imported & considered 'Noxious'.


That certainly sounds like an accurate statement! Ashley was imported and
she's also a large mammal and she's certainly noxious.


The
population is low & even an 'urban' enviornment in NZ would be considered
'large town' to 'Small City' in the USA.


.....yeah, back in the '50s.

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...


Well, congratulations Ashley. You win. You win the right to remain
ignorant,

Everyone has that right. I choose not to be. Have you bothered reading any
of the links I have posted about NZ's environment in this and other threads?
If not, I can only assume that ignorance is your choice.

you win the right to put your cats at risk.

No. I choose proportionate reactions to risk, not disproportionate
risk-aversion. Were my cats at risk from roaming coyotes, poisonous snakes
and widespread antifreeze use, I would react appropriately to those risks.
As those risks are not present, I don't react to them. And I don't
over-react to the risks that are present. I choose ways to minimise the
danger of being involved in a car accident, but not totally remove it
because I believe that eliminates too much experience and enjoyment from
their lives. Life is a trade-off of risk and pleasure. If you try to
eliminate all the risk (which you never can do) you eliminate most of the
pleasure as well. We all draw our line in the sand somewhere. You draw yours
too far down the pleasure-elimination track for my choosing.

I'll only beat my
head against a brick wall until it hurts. You, obviously, are willing to
be
bloodied. So, go ahead, bang away, I'm outta here - I have to go
apologize
profusely to my cats for making their lives so miserable.

And again, stop twisting my words. I am sure your cats are not miserable -
if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But
again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would
not choose that life for my cats.

"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:01:01 +1200, "Ashley"
wrote:

anti-freeze is not an issue; there is no rabies; dogs must be contained on
their owners' properties so roaming dogs are few and far between;

Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
dogs,

No, but they minimise things. To stop that entirely, you'd have to ban dogs!
And, as you've been following my posts, you'll be aware that I most
definitely do not claim there is *no* danger from dogs. I am, however,
saying there is not *widespread* danger from dogs. Risk/reward tradeoff.

or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
the neighborhood.

Just last week, there was a stupid lady on the news, upset that she
had to spend a weekend in jail because she lets her dog run free.
Apparently, if it happens 5 times, you go to court. The first two
times in court, she was given a suspended sentence. But she refused to
keep her dog on a leash, so the judge put her in jail for 3 days.

Very mild punishment. Obvious refusal to obey the alaw. Yet she stands
there in tears, complaining at how unfair the system is.

Some people are just dumb ;-)

"Ashley" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...


Now you're backtracking?

Nope.

You said in other posts that there *are* risks in
NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of
you).

Because those risks are minimal.


Because your concern for cats' welfare is minimal, not to mention your mind!

"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message
nk.net...
In article ,
"Ashley" wrote:

Maybe you could email them and ask for references.

I think that if they're going to make such flat, bold assertions, they
should cite their studies without being asked. Otherwise, frankly, it's
a Web site, which anyone can have.


But you'll find this on that particular website:

The Feline Advisory Bureau's commitment to the improvement of the care of
cats extends to the funding of several post-graduate posts in university
veterinary schools. By funding veterinary surgeons to specialise in the
care of cats, FAB continues to create the scientific backbone for many of
the advances in the treatment of cats.

FAB's Lecturer at Bristol University's Feline Centre at Langford is Dr Sarah
Caney. A previous FAB Resident at Bristol for two years, Sarah graduated
from Bristol University in 1993. After a short period in small animal
practice, she moved to the Royal Veterinary College in London where she
spent a year as an intern in small animal medicine and surgery. Sarah
strengthened her interest in and knowledge of cats by gaining an RCVS
certificate in small animal medicine and subsequently studying for a PhD in
feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) infection.


When Andrea Harvey became a FAB Resident in January 2002 it was like coming
home. She graduated from the University of Bristol in 2000 and returned to
its Langford Feline Centre as the FAB resident.
Following graduation, Andrea worked as a small animal locum in Wiltshire
before taking up a post in a predominantly small animal practice in
Sheffield. Her specific interest in cats developed over this time.


Michiel Kraijer graduated from the University of Utrecht (Netherlands) in
2000. He worked for a year in small animal practice in the Netherlands,
before becoming FAB Resident at the Feline Clinic of the Royal (Dick) School
of Veterinary Studies in Edinburgh. His interest in feline medicine
developed when he was a student and was stimulated while seeing practice in
three feline-only small animal hospitals in the United States.

In 1998 Michiel set up a foundation with the aim of increasing interest in
feline medicine among Dutch vets. The foundation still organises yearly
symposia about advances in feline medicine



Anyone would think vets with specialist knowledge of cats contributed to it
.... or something