What's the deal with Hill's m/d?

From: (Liz)

Lauren, it couldn't look good coming from them. LOL But... it's a
start toward something better. This is why criticizing can be *very
constructive.*

Very true!

Lauren
________
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KellyH wrote:

Cheryl, you might want to try California Natural

I've tried giving him the canned but he won't eat it. The dry I'm
hesitant about because some cats with IBD don't tolarate rice, either,
and I'm trying to eliminate dry food. His IBD is in the small
intestine so anything with fiber was a nightmare, so he needs very low
fiber in addition to no grain (according to his vet).

Have you tried
Hill's z/d? That also might help, it's supposed to be the
non-allergen food.

Tried that, it made things worse. He liked it ok and I got him
switched over to just the zd and then he was a mess. It has corn
gluten meal in the top ingredients. I think the only difference with
it is that the protein is hydrolized (or something like that) so the
body doesn't have to do it? I don't know but it didn't work. Tried
IVD green peas and rabbit and had the same problem with fiber. I
don't think there is much out there that I haven't tried for him;
either he won't eat it or he has a flare-up. He also doesn't seem to
like my cooking as I've tried making him homecooked food. Eats it for
a day or so.

Thanks for the suggestions!

--
Cheryl

KellyH wrote:

Cheryl, you might want to try California Natural

I've tried giving him the canned but he won't eat it. The dry I'm
hesitant about because some cats with IBD don't tolarate rice, either,
and I'm trying to eliminate dry food. His IBD is in the small
intestine so anything with fiber was a nightmare, so he needs very low
fiber in addition to no grain (according to his vet).

Have you tried
Hill's z/d? That also might help, it's supposed to be the
non-allergen food.

Tried that, it made things worse. He liked it ok and I got him
switched over to just the zd and then he was a mess. It has corn
gluten meal in the top ingredients. I think the only difference with
it is that the protein is hydrolized (or something like that) so the
body doesn't have to do it? I don't know but it didn't work. Tried
IVD green peas and rabbit and had the same problem with fiber. I
don't think there is much out there that I haven't tried for him;
either he won't eat it or he has a flare-up. He also doesn't seem to
like my cooking as I've tried making him homecooked food. Eats it for
a day or so.

Thanks for the suggestions!

--
Cheryl

From: (Liz)
Date: 8/1/03 8:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve already
updated his knowledge.


What exactly are you referring to, Liz?

From: (Liz)
Date: 8/1/03 8:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

LOL - Seems Hill's learned something useful. I wonder if Steve already
updated his knowledge.


What exactly are you referring to, Liz?

This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal, corn
meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right track
making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their ingredients
to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.

Lauren

Are you more concerned whether or not the diet works or what the ingredients
are?

This M/D stuff does not look good. Pork by-products, corn gluten meal, corn
meal, powdered cellulose??? What kills me is that it has not real chicken
liver, but chicken liver "flavor". I do think Hill's is on the right track
making foods with less carbs but boy do they need to change their ingredients
to something more substantially appropriate for a carnivore, IMO.

Lauren

Are you more concerned whether or not the diet works or what the ingredients
are?

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is
interesting.

Pork by-products are a highly digestible protein source 86%. Highly
digestible proteins are less antigenic because very little protein is
absorbed intact into the mucosa. Also, less protein will get into the colon
so less colonic ammonia will be generated. Pork by-products are also more
nutritious than skeletal meat and is also probably a novel protein source
for your cat - which reduces the likelihood of Shadow being allergic or
developing a reaction to it.

Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes, unfortunately,
I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high for an IBD diet. The
high protein content increases the chances of protein antigenicity. Also,
any
protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it isn't
metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's previous liver
problems -- just a thought.

Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has moderate
protein and fat content and a single protein source (lamb), and a single
carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent carbohydrate source
because its more completely assimilated than other carbs. There aren't many
reports of allergies to rice in cats!


I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains

You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of all
protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain either
too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I
have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and
even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different
requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me.
Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more
than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat.

The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and 30 - 45%
protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimilaÂ*tion can result in diarrhea.
OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed smaller portions of food
at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch and secretions. Although fat is
one of the most digestible components of the diet, fat malassimilaÂ*tion is
not that uncommon. So the amount of fat in the diet would be depend on how
much the cat can tolerate.

I suppose it is
impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high
enough protein content?

sigh

Forget the grain-o-phobic's chanting and give d/d a shot! I've had excellent
results. The next step would be home cooked diet.

Good luck.

Phil

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is
interesting.

Pork by-products are a highly digestible protein source 86%. Highly
digestible proteins are less antigenic because very little protein is
absorbed intact into the mucosa. Also, less protein will get into the colon
so less colonic ammonia will be generated. Pork by-products are also more
nutritious than skeletal meat and is also probably a novel protein source
for your cat - which reduces the likelihood of Shadow being allergic or
developing a reaction to it.

Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes, unfortunately,
I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high for an IBD diet. The
high protein content increases the chances of protein antigenicity. Also,
any
protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it isn't
metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's previous liver
problems -- just a thought.

Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has moderate
protein and fat content and a single protein source (lamb), and a single
carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent carbohydrate source
because its more completely assimilated than other carbs. There aren't many
reports of allergies to rice in cats!


I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains

You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of all
protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain either
too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I
have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and
even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different
requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me.
Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more
than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat.

The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and 30 - 45%
protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimilaÂ*tion can result in diarrhea.
OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed smaller portions of food
at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch and secretions. Although fat is
one of the most digestible components of the diet, fat malassimilaÂ*tion is
not that uncommon. So the amount of fat in the diet would be depend on how
much the cat can tolerate.

I suppose it is
impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high
enough protein content?

sigh

Forget the grain-o-phobic's chanting and give d/d a shot! I've had excellent
results. The next step would be home cooked diet.

Good luck.

Phil

Phil P. wrote:
"Cheryl" wrote in message
...

snip pork info - thanks!

Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes,
unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high
for an IBD diet. The high protein content increases the chances of
protein antigenicity. Also, any
protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of
ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it
isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's
previous liver problems -- just a thought.

I do appreciate it. Running out of canned options, though.

Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has
moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source
(lamb),
and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent
carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than
other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats!

This is one I've never heard of and hadn't been suggested by his
former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks
pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot. Though if it is
the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he
likely won't touch it.

I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for
Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains

You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of
all
protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain
either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat.

I think with him it has merrit and I don't believe it is all grain but
just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in
here again!). When we switched vets and she told me to take him off
SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything,
I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he
visited the litter box decreased substantually and he even had some
normal poops for a couple of days. The ultimate goal is to get off of
dry food altogether but he is so stubborn and the best I've gotten to
so far is down to about 1/4 cup per day of dry between both Shadow and
Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much
lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach).

The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and
30
- 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimilaÂ*tion can
result
in diarrhea.

I have a feeling this is happening with most of his food atm. He
isn't losing weight so even though I'd *like* him to lose weight, the
lack of that tells me he's using something out of his food... I
*think* any way.

OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed
smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch
and secretions.

I guess this is another good case for canned over dry (the GI
stretch). I do feed him smaller meals lately - he seems to take to it
better and eats all of the canned I put out. He loves his dry though..
I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the
little bit of dry.

The next step would be home cooked diet.

I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. Plain cooked
chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and
vitamins, he doesn't like it. I only do this to get past some of the
worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I
talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there
published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones.