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#42
October 15th 03, 08:39 PM
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-L. wrote:
We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but unable to "make the decision". We had been trying to get her to euth this cat for weeks. On the fouth trip in, he expired in the car. That poor cat's final memory was of a trip to the vet. Not something I would want *my* cat to have as his last experience. Then she said "I'm so glad he did it on his own, I didn't have to make the decision". Sheesh. What a disservice. -L. God forbid. I salute your ability to hold your tongue. Having typed that; Spot loves going to, and being at the vets! [We always made the effort to make Spot's "new life experiences" as relaxing and calming as possible when younger] We only have to put his catbasket on the floor and he climbs straight in. He purrs anxiously in the waiting room, checking out the dogs that haven't noticed him. He's always eager to get out of the basket, once on the vets table, and happily sits there being prodded. His normal happy purring causes the human-on-the-other-end-of-the-stethoscope a little grief sometimes. 
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#43
October 15th 03, 08:39 PM
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-L. wrote:
We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but unable to "make the decision". We had been trying to get her to euth this cat for weeks. On the fouth trip in, he expired in the car. That poor cat's final memory was of a trip to the vet. Not something I would want *my* cat to have as his last experience. Then she said "I'm so glad he did it on his own, I didn't have to make the decision". Sheesh. What a disservice. -L. God forbid. I salute your ability to hold your tongue. Having typed that; Spot loves going to, and being at the vets! [We always made the effort to make Spot's "new life experiences" as relaxing and calming as possible when younger] We only have to put his catbasket on the floor and he climbs straight in. He purrs anxiously in the waiting room, checking out the dogs that haven't noticed him. He's always eager to get out of the basket, once on the vets table, and happily sits there being prodded. His normal happy purring causes the human-on-the-other-end-of-the-stethoscope a little grief sometimes.
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#44
October 15th 03, 08:39 PM
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Napoleon wrote:
Thanks for the link and your kind wish. I have read several similar articles. Bless the internet! Last week, I would have gladly let Spot go - he wasn't himself at all, totally lethargic and disorientated. Fortunately(?) due to the turmoil in my head I procrastinated. I'm now delighted that I didn't make any solid plans and believe his demeanour then was largely due to his biospsy injury and medication. I won't delude myself but I'm more than willing and able to give him all the comfort possible to ensure he gains the most pleasure from what little time he has. But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when he eats? Not interested in play, not interested in interaction, sleeps or hides most of the time. IME, working as a vet tech for a feline specialty hospital, and with my own animals, you can see it in their eyes. They almost look at you like "let me go, please". It's a certain look. -L. Apologies to L. My newsreader failed to pick up the above post. Thank goodness for that! I was deeply worried the signs wouldn't be so prominent. My goal is not to let Spot get to that stage. I can say that Spot always has an appetite but shows awkwardness and discomfort in eating, obviously attributable to the tumour. He may indeed show some of the signs you describe although this always happens shortly after his medicine. However the day after, and in the hours leading to his medication time, Spot will appear generally in good spirits. He acts quite normally and will often instigate interaction, be it getting fed, played with, brushing or stroking. Then, as if sensing a flea or itch, he totally ignores me to begin a self-cleaning routine. Thank you L. We recently had the sad task of saying goodbye to an "only cat" after 19 years of companionship; this was the first time I had ever been My heartfelt sympathies, Napoleon. Spot is also our only pet. He's not a child-substitute but is my family. just near the end when things cascaded) and a lot of people apparently *don't* feel that they were able to *see it in their eyes* when their pets are near the end. I'm just saying it's not something that people percieve with certainty in all instances; so it's not a sure-fire guide. I guess it's down to each individuals' level of compassion. My one piece of advice from our experience is that if there is going to be an absolute optimal time to help your pet along, you may not know it except in hindsight. Sometimes animals look like they are right at the edge and then they pull back and get better for a while. Maybe a few hours, maybe a couple of days, maybe even a few weeks. After it's all over you may not be 100% sure that the cat couldn't have gone on longer with an acceptable quality of life. On the flip side, unless you decide to live those last few weeks in a vet's office, you may not be able to get the cat to the vet to do what needs to be done right when you decide that it's time. A lot depends on the nature of their problems. As your original post implies, they can't tell us how they are feeling, although often their behaviour gives indications. What I'm saying is that you just do the best you can in terms of gauging the situation and don't beat yourself over the head if in hindsight you decide that you acted a little too soon or a little too late. You can only be so precise. In our case we took the cat to the vet after she was nauseated and wouldn't eat or drink for a couple of days and found out she was accumulating fluid in her lungs. The vet concluded that she either had a heart problem or lung tumors. Whichever it was, treatment would make her more miserable, given her age and other problems probably not be successful, and likely cause her kidneys to fail. It was late in the afternoon, the vet gave the cat some medicine to ameliorate the fluid accumulation and so we took her home just because it was just kind of a shock to hear that the time we had been dreading had finally come. The cat was uncomfortable that night, although not in acute distress. She was walking around and interacting with us some (which was very hard emotionally) but mostly wanted to be under the bed. Although we took her in the first thing next morning, we were second guessing ourselves during the night about not having the vet put her to sleep the previous afternoon. Thankfully she didn't have any kind of traumatic episode before we took her that last time in the morning, although by then she was weakening fast. But as I said before you can only be so precise about the timing of any action you may wind up taking. Good luck. Your cat is lucky to have someone as concerned as you are. My sym This is precisely what fired off my alarm bells. Obvious signs would be too late, in my book. We've been told he is in great pain. As others have confirmed, that cat's hide it well, then I must accept that. Pain aside, Spot is relatively happy unless he's drugged up, that I'm certain. Thank you Napoloen (thank you all) for the help, support and kind words offered.
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#45
October 15th 03, 08:39 PM
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Napoleon wrote:
Thanks for the link and your kind wish. I have read several similar articles. Bless the internet! Last week, I would have gladly let Spot go - he wasn't himself at all, totally lethargic and disorientated. Fortunately(?) due to the turmoil in my head I procrastinated. I'm now delighted that I didn't make any solid plans and believe his demeanour then was largely due to his biospsy injury and medication. I won't delude myself but I'm more than willing and able to give him all the comfort possible to ensure he gains the most pleasure from what little time he has. But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when he eats? Not interested in play, not interested in interaction, sleeps or hides most of the time. IME, working as a vet tech for a feline specialty hospital, and with my own animals, you can see it in their eyes. They almost look at you like "let me go, please". It's a certain look. -L. Apologies to L. My newsreader failed to pick up the above post. Thank goodness for that! I was deeply worried the signs wouldn't be so prominent. My goal is not to let Spot get to that stage. I can say that Spot always has an appetite but shows awkwardness and discomfort in eating, obviously attributable to the tumour. He may indeed show some of the signs you describe although this always happens shortly after his medicine. However the day after, and in the hours leading to his medication time, Spot will appear generally in good spirits. He acts quite normally and will often instigate interaction, be it getting fed, played with, brushing or stroking. Then, as if sensing a flea or itch, he totally ignores me to begin a self-cleaning routine. Thank you L. We recently had the sad task of saying goodbye to an "only cat" after 19 years of companionship; this was the first time I had ever been My heartfelt sympathies, Napoleon. Spot is also our only pet. He's not a child-substitute but is my family. just near the end when things cascaded) and a lot of people apparently *don't* feel that they were able to *see it in their eyes* when their pets are near the end. I'm just saying it's not something that people percieve with certainty in all instances; so it's not a sure-fire guide. I guess it's down to each individuals' level of compassion. My one piece of advice from our experience is that if there is going to be an absolute optimal time to help your pet along, you may not know it except in hindsight. Sometimes animals look like they are right at the edge and then they pull back and get better for a while. Maybe a few hours, maybe a couple of days, maybe even a few weeks. After it's all over you may not be 100% sure that the cat couldn't have gone on longer with an acceptable quality of life. On the flip side, unless you decide to live those last few weeks in a vet's office, you may not be able to get the cat to the vet to do what needs to be done right when you decide that it's time. A lot depends on the nature of their problems. As your original post implies, they can't tell us how they are feeling, although often their behaviour gives indications. What I'm saying is that you just do the best you can in terms of gauging the situation and don't beat yourself over the head if in hindsight you decide that you acted a little too soon or a little too late. You can only be so precise. In our case we took the cat to the vet after she was nauseated and wouldn't eat or drink for a couple of days and found out she was accumulating fluid in her lungs. The vet concluded that she either had a heart problem or lung tumors. Whichever it was, treatment would make her more miserable, given her age and other problems probably not be successful, and likely cause her kidneys to fail. It was late in the afternoon, the vet gave the cat some medicine to ameliorate the fluid accumulation and so we took her home just because it was just kind of a shock to hear that the time we had been dreading had finally come. The cat was uncomfortable that night, although not in acute distress. She was walking around and interacting with us some (which was very hard emotionally) but mostly wanted to be under the bed. Although we took her in the first thing next morning, we were second guessing ourselves during the night about not having the vet put her to sleep the previous afternoon. Thankfully she didn't have any kind of traumatic episode before we took her that last time in the morning, although by then she was weakening fast. But as I said before you can only be so precise about the timing of any action you may wind up taking. Good luck. Your cat is lucky to have someone as concerned as you are. My sym This is precisely what fired off my alarm bells. Obvious signs would be too late, in my book. We've been told he is in great pain. As others have confirmed, that cat's hide it well, then I must accept that. Pain aside, Spot is relatively happy unless he's drugged up, that I'm certain. Thank you Napoloen (thank you all) for the help, support and kind words offered.
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#46
October 16th 03, 01:28 AM
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(-L.) wrote in message m...
(Napoleon) wrote in message . com... (-L.) wrote in message m... "mug punter" wrote in message ... -L. wrote: "Animal luva" wrote in message ... 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less than other animals ? We know this is true. Cats are stoic by nature. They do not show illness easily. This link might help you know when it is time: http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com...edecision.html Best of luck to you, -L. Thanks for the link and your kind wish. I have read several similar articles. Bless the internet! Last week, I would have gladly let Spot go - he wasn't himself at all, totally lethargic and disorientated. Fortunately(?) due to the turmoil in my head I procrastinated. I'm now delighted that I didn't make any solid plans and believe his demeanour then was largely due to his biospsy injury and medication. I won't delude myself but I'm more than willing and able to give him all the comfort possible to ensure he gains the most pleasure from what little time he has. But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when he eats? Not interested in play, not interested in interaction, sleeps or hides most of the time. IME, working as a vet tech for a feline specialty hospital, and with my own animals, you can see it in their eyes. They almost look at you like "let me go, please". It's a certain look. -L. We recently had the sad task of saying goodbye to an "only cat" after 19 years of companionship; this was the first time I had ever been involved in the situation so my first hand experience is thankfully limited. But I spent a great deal of time reading about cats with her particular problems (she was really doing pretty well coping with the problems many aging cats have-CRF & hyperthyrodism, arthritis-until just near the end when things cascaded) and a lot of people apparently *don't* feel that they were able to *see it in their eyes* when their pets are near the end. I'm just saying it's not something that people percieve with certainty in all instances; so it's not a sure-fire guide. My one piece of advice from our experience is that if there is going to be an absolute optimal time to help your pet along, you may not know it except in hindsight. Sometimes animals look like they are right at the edge and then they pull back and get better for a while. Maybe a few hours, maybe a couple of days, maybe even a few weeks. After it's all over you may not be 100% sure that the cat couldn't have gone on longer with an acceptable quality of life. On the flip side, unless you decide to live those last few weeks in a vet's office, IME, if you are doing this, or need to do this, it's time. My point here is that there can be a delay in getting an animal to the vet because of hours of operation, holidays, or other things and unfortuntely an animal could have a critical episode and go through some hours of trauma before you can get to the vet. A real common example is cats with CRF. Cats may live fairly comfortably with CRF for months or years and suddenly "crash". Sometimes they rebound after one of these episodes and live pretty comfortably for a months longer; sometimes the episode is terminal. If the latter event happens and you can't get to the vet right away (and I'm talking about a delay of some hours or at most probably a day), people second-guess themselves a lot. But the nature of CRF, which is a terminal condition, is that the prognosis for the immediate future the vet can give you often isn't in black or white, it's a matter of probabilities. A cat with CRF might crash, then recover and have another six months or more of a relatively comfortable existence or it might have another acute episode next week. So someone might make a decision to treat a CRF cat who has crashed and then have it happen again shortly after. Or it might not happen again for months. But in the meantime you can't set up shop at the vet, so if another acute episode happens while the vet is closed, it's easy to feel bad that the cat had to go through the episode for some hours before you could get to the vet. I'm sure that there are analogous situations for other terminal conditions. We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but unable to "make the decision". We had been trying to get her to euth this cat for weeks. On the fouth trip in, he expired in the car. That poor cat's final memory was of a trip to the vet. Not something I would want *my* cat to have as his last experience. Then she said "I'm so glad he did it on his own, I didn't have to make the decision". Sheesh. What a disservice. -L. If this lady was being told by the vet weeks before that euthanizing the cat was the best thing and in fact knew when the end had come, you are absolutely right, she did the cat a great disservice. She was just prolonging the cat's suffering to fill her own emotional needs.
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#47
October 16th 03, 01:28 AM
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(-L.) wrote in message m...
(Napoleon) wrote in message . com... (-L.) wrote in message m... "mug punter" wrote in message ... -L. wrote: "Animal luva" wrote in message ... 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less than other animals ? We know this is true. Cats are stoic by nature. They do not show illness easily. This link might help you know when it is time: http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com...edecision.html Best of luck to you, -L. Thanks for the link and your kind wish. I have read several similar articles. Bless the internet! Last week, I would have gladly let Spot go - he wasn't himself at all, totally lethargic and disorientated. Fortunately(?) due to the turmoil in my head I procrastinated. I'm now delighted that I didn't make any solid plans and believe his demeanour then was largely due to his biospsy injury and medication. I won't delude myself but I'm more than willing and able to give him all the comfort possible to ensure he gains the most pleasure from what little time he has. But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when he eats? Not interested in play, not interested in interaction, sleeps or hides most of the time. IME, working as a vet tech for a feline specialty hospital, and with my own animals, you can see it in their eyes. They almost look at you like "let me go, please". It's a certain look. -L. We recently had the sad task of saying goodbye to an "only cat" after 19 years of companionship; this was the first time I had ever been involved in the situation so my first hand experience is thankfully limited. But I spent a great deal of time reading about cats with her particular problems (she was really doing pretty well coping with the problems many aging cats have-CRF & hyperthyrodism, arthritis-until just near the end when things cascaded) and a lot of people apparently *don't* feel that they were able to *see it in their eyes* when their pets are near the end. I'm just saying it's not something that people percieve with certainty in all instances; so it's not a sure-fire guide. My one piece of advice from our experience is that if there is going to be an absolute optimal time to help your pet along, you may not know it except in hindsight. Sometimes animals look like they are right at the edge and then they pull back and get better for a while. Maybe a few hours, maybe a couple of days, maybe even a few weeks. After it's all over you may not be 100% sure that the cat couldn't have gone on longer with an acceptable quality of life. On the flip side, unless you decide to live those last few weeks in a vet's office, IME, if you are doing this, or need to do this, it's time. My point here is that there can be a delay in getting an animal to the vet because of hours of operation, holidays, or other things and unfortuntely an animal could have a critical episode and go through some hours of trauma before you can get to the vet. A real common example is cats with CRF. Cats may live fairly comfortably with CRF for months or years and suddenly "crash". Sometimes they rebound after one of these episodes and live pretty comfortably for a months longer; sometimes the episode is terminal. If the latter event happens and you can't get to the vet right away (and I'm talking about a delay of some hours or at most probably a day), people second-guess themselves a lot. But the nature of CRF, which is a terminal condition, is that the prognosis for the immediate future the vet can give you often isn't in black or white, it's a matter of probabilities. A cat with CRF might crash, then recover and have another six months or more of a relatively comfortable existence or it might have another acute episode next week. So someone might make a decision to treat a CRF cat who has crashed and then have it happen again shortly after. Or it might not happen again for months. But in the meantime you can't set up shop at the vet, so if another acute episode happens while the vet is closed, it's easy to feel bad that the cat had to go through the episode for some hours before you could get to the vet. I'm sure that there are analogous situations for other terminal conditions. We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but unable to "make the decision". We had been trying to get her to euth this cat for weeks. On the fouth trip in, he expired in the car. That poor cat's final memory was of a trip to the vet. Not something I would want *my* cat to have as his last experience. Then she said "I'm so glad he did it on his own, I didn't have to make the decision". Sheesh. What a disservice. -L. If this lady was being told by the vet weeks before that euthanizing the cat was the best thing and in fact knew when the end had come, you are absolutely right, she did the cat a great disservice. She was just prolonging the cat's suffering to fill her own emotional needs.
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#48
October 16th 03, 01:45 AM
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(-L.) wrote in message om...
"Animal luva" wrote in message ... He's a 13yr old neutered male cat recently diagnosed with oral squamous cell carcinoma and we been advised to prepare for euthanasia. He's been prescribed metacam in a final bid to make his last days more comfortable and we've been informed that Spot "will let us know when it's time" Needless to say I've trawled the internet. I've got my head around most of it - except where it comes to a cats pain threshold. Obviously, it's vital I understand this so can anyone tell me which if any of these statements are true? 1. Felines posess a higher pain threshold than other animals. or 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less than other animals ? We know this is true. Cats are stoic by nature. They do not show illness easily. Thank you. This link might help you know when it is time: http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com...edecision.html I had not run across this one before; I think it makes a lot of good points in a very succinct manner. Best of luck to you, -L.
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#49
October 16th 03, 01:45 AM
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(-L.) wrote in message om...
"Animal luva" wrote in message ... He's a 13yr old neutered male cat recently diagnosed with oral squamous cell carcinoma and we been advised to prepare for euthanasia. He's been prescribed metacam in a final bid to make his last days more comfortable and we've been informed that Spot "will let us know when it's time" Needless to say I've trawled the internet. I've got my head around most of it - except where it comes to a cats pain threshold. Obviously, it's vital I understand this so can anyone tell me which if any of these statements are true? 1. Felines posess a higher pain threshold than other animals. or 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less than other animals ? We know this is true. Cats are stoic by nature. They do not show illness easily. Thank you. This link might help you know when it is time: http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com...edecision.html I had not run across this one before; I think it makes a lot of good points in a very succinct manner. Best of luck to you, -L.
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