Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work?

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:42:15 GMT, Mary wrote:

"Margaret S." wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:40:35 GMT, Mary wrote:
/snip/

they must suffer heats
and painful intercourse.


From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
to cite any actual studies to support it.

/snip/

Margaret, have you seen a cat penis? Cat vaginas are similar to human
ones.

Aw, you're just anthropomorphizing.


It is a fact that sexual intercourse is necessary for ovulation in cats,
and it is a fact that the spiny penis of a male cat is painful to the
female.


Um ... do you have a study to support that?


Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:43:08 GMT, "Margaret S."
wrote:

Not much other good reason for spending money on a vasectomy, sfaik. On my
site I mentioned a few bad reasons, but I'm not going into complicated
issues here on Usenet, where posts get snipped out of context (and sometimes
misrepresented).

It really is bad manners to direct people to your website to continue
the discussion. Snipping is the correct way to keep conversation
focused on the point you want to discuss.

My question to you is have you had a vasectomy done on a cat? If so,
what did it cost? I've tried looking for one who would do it in the
Dallas area, with little success. I would consider it for the feral
colony I support, but most vets won't handle a feral in a trap at
all. Those who will, have never done vasectomies.

BarB

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:11:58 GMT, BarB wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:43:08 GMT, "Margaret S."
wrote:

Not much other good reason for spending money on a vasectomy, sfaik. On my
site I mentioned a few bad reasons, but I'm not going into complicated
issues here on Usenet, where posts get snipped out of context (and sometimes
misrepresented).

It really is bad manners to direct people to your website to continue
the discussion. Snipping is the correct way to keep conversation
focused on the point you want to discuss.

My question to you is have you had a vasectomy done on a cat? If so,
what did it cost? I've tried looking for one who would do it in the
Dallas area, with little success. I would consider it for the feral
colony I support, but most vets won't handle a feral in a trap at
all. Those who will, have never done vasectomies.

BarB


I just asked a simple question and had no idea it would get out of
hand. You're right, continuing this thread is in bad taste.
Thanks people for the range of opinion.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:39 -0500, "KellyH"
wrote:

"Margaret S." wrote :

I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets, and
none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries." One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.


But not safer than a regular spay. I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet
about this next time I see her just to see what her reaction is.

I'll be asking this of several vets I work with also.

A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
except hold them to try to relieve their pain. I imagine it as being
like the worst burning bladder infection ever experienced.

Why anyone would do it is beyond me. What does it do for the poor
female except give her the misery of mating without the joy of her
kittens?

BarB

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:48:53 GMT, BarB wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:39 -0500, "KellyH"
wrote:

"Margaret S." wrote :

I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets,
and none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries." One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.

But not safer than a regular spay.


Probably not, at least on issues of later uterus infection/pyo.


I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet
about this next time I see her just to see what her reaction is.


I'll be asking this of several vets I work with also.

You might also ask them, for an owner who will NEVER agree to desexing his
cat, is it better next year for that owner to have one sterilized cat with
ovaries, or to still have that cat unsterilized plus a dozen kittens
unsterilized.


A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
except hold them to try to relieve their pain.


You must be talking about a female who is not allowed to mate. On my site
I've talked about how it is for a female who is allowed to mate.



Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:11:58 GMT, BarB wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:43:08 GMT, "Margaret S."
wrote:
/snip/

Re rudeness, you must have a good killfile, if you've missed all the rude
posts here. I don't usually killfile.


My question to you is have you had a vasectomy done on a cat? If so,
what did it cost?


I haven't shopped for it lately. My impression is that it might be a bit
more expensive as it is more difficult, but OTOH someone might give you a
discount as you're doing a feral project. Or you might check at some local
universities that have veterinary medicine programs. I understand that they
often work with feral projects.


I've tried looking for one who would do it in the
Dallas area, with little success. I would consider it for the feral
colony I support, but most vets won't handle a feral in a trap at
all. Those who will, have never done vasectomies.


I'm sure Texas A&M is too far for you, but perhaps someone from their
project could give you a lead.
http://www.cvm.tamu.edu/afcat/manageprog.htm



Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:03:25 GMT, Diane L. Schirf wrote:

In article ,
"Margaret S." wrote:
/snip/

From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
to cite any actual studies to support it.

Not looking very hard, are you?


Have you seen any actual studies, or even mentions of any? The "About.com"
site just gave a hint of the legend; if there were any real support, I
expect they'd have cited it.


Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:17:47 GMT, "Margaret S."
wrote:


You might also ask them, for an owner who will NEVER agree to desexing his
cat, is it better next year for that owner to have one sterilized cat with
ovaries, or to still have that cat unsterilized plus a dozen kittens
unsterilized.

With the people I deal with who adopt cats, it's always a question of
cost. They may try to rationalize a no-spay position, but when you
offer a low-cost spay, it's surprising how their position changes.
If we adopt one out that's too young to spay, I follow up later with
an offer to spay her at a vet who gives us a discount price. That's
about 1/4 of what some vets charge.

I'd really like to hold kittens until they were spayed, but sometimes
we have to find homes when we can and hope for the best .

A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
except hold them to try to relieve their pain.


You must be talking about a female who is not allowed to mate. On my site
I've talked about how it is for a female who is allowed to mate.


Yes, I'm talking about those who we can't mate. None of our foster
homes is in a position to keep an intact male.

BarB

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:39 -0500, KellyH wrote:

"Margaret S." wrote in message
.. .
/snip/

I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet about this next time I see her
just to see what her reaction is.


If she has time, I would appreciate some vet feedback on this hypothetical
poster child. (No, MS and Zz, these are not cats of mine or my neighbors, it
is a construct I'm developing.

"Granny" is a middle-aged indoor/outdoor cat who has been producing litters
for several years. She and several other cats have a very good relationship:
grooming each other, sleeping in a pile on the owner's bed, sharing a big
food bowl. Everyone's health is good, no one is spraying or displaying other
signs of stress or aggression. All have all available vaccinations and
tested FIV negative. Her mate, "Grandpa", uses the cat door and does his
spraying outdoors. "Granny" does not have to wander or mate with strange
toms, as "Grandpa" is always ready for her. (The local vet says "Grandpa"
has negligible chance of being bit by an FIV-positive cat in this area.) The
_only_ problem this household has is pregnancy.

"Granny" is already too old for significant mammary cancer benefits from
spaying. If she developed negative side-effects from spaying such as "spay
incontinence", immoderate appetite, aggressive behavior toward the younger
cats, and/or spraying -- it could spoil the currently-peaceful dynamics of
the whole group. The owners take good care of routine health maintenance,
but would not be able to handle life-long hormone replacement therapy, food
rationing, and Feliway etc.

Being too old for the mammary cancer benefits, what other _medical_ benefits
might Granny expect from spaying to offset the possible negative
side-effects and danger of loss of her current problem-free situation?


Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:41:35 GMT, BarB wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:17:47 GMT, "Margaret S."
wrote:


You might also ask them, for an owner who will NEVER agree to desexing
his
cat, is it better next year for that owner to have one sterilized cat
with
ovaries, or to still have that cat unsterilized plus a dozen kittens
unsterilized.

With the people I deal with who adopt cats, it's always a question of
cost. They may try to rationalize a no-spay position, but when you
offer a low-cost spay, it's surprising how their position changes.


I've seen that too. But there are some people who really do hold to their
principles, and the only way they would sterilize was if we informed them of
a non-desexing alternative. (I've heard of one dog owner who called 12 vets
to find one who would do a vasectomy on his dog, and got it done, in spite
of the higher cost.)

I think, the more options that are widely known, the more sterilizations
will get done, which is the important thing.

/snip/

A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
except hold them to try to relieve their pain.


You must be talking about a female who is not allowed to mate. On my site
I've talked about how it is for a female who is allowed to mate.


Yes, I'm talking about those who we can't mate. None of our foster
homes is in a position to keep an intact male.

For your young females, I suppose you try to spay them as early as possible
anyway, for the tumor prevention benefits? I'm not suggesting either letting
shelter cats mate recreationally , or preventing a female in heat from
mating. But when an owner has his own intact male and female so she does not
have any frustration time when in heat, things are quite different.


Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.