Declawing etc Illegal in Rome

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Wendy wrote:
Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
cats
ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
trapper.

It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
being the two biggest.

Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and
only
take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
neuters.


There's no way you are going to see the inside
of a cat's ear at night from a distance.

You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the tattoo
when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.


That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks trying
to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.




Sometimes you can barely make
out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
dark-skinned cats.

Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white--
which
would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"Wendy" wrote in message
news

"cybercat" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote :

"cybercat" wrote in message
...


Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?

Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna
would
be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
registration
number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out
of
business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would
only
need be
a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed.
A
large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as
noticible
as
tipping.

Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
trapped
to be scanned.

I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral
organizations.
Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
identifying
managed ferals.


So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear
tipping
for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right
then
cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
suspected,
just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That
is
what
I feared.



Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats
ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.

A tattoo sure as hell would be visible to a trapper at night. When cat
was
trapped *in* the trap- the trapper could *clearly* see a tattoo from a few
inches outside of the trap and could then simply release the cat on the
spot.



So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony? How
will you know when you've gotten them all? Are you suggesting you have to
re-trap the whole lot to know? What's to keep you from re-trapping the same
damn cat over and over and missing totally it's brother/sister who is almost
an identical twin or triplet for that matter? More accurately is what's to
stop you from spending night after night trying to re-trap trap-wise cats?
You can't just assume that because the cat is trap-wise that it's been
previously trapped. We been unsuccessfully trying to get one female for two
years. Because her ear isn't tipped we know at a glance that she hasn't been
spayed (as the litters of kittens found at the location attest to). That
makes it worth the time going back and back and back after her. Because the
rest of them do have tipped ears we can be pretty confident that she is the
mother of the litters we find.

"Wendy" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Wendy wrote:
Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
cats
ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
trapper.

It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
being the two biggest.

Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and
only
take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
early
neuters.


There's no way you are going to see the inside
of a cat's ear at night from a distance.

You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the tattoo
when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.


That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks trying
to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.

Awwww, poor baby. Better to disfigure a beautiful animal for your
convenience, right?

"Wendy" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"Wendy" wrote in message
news

"cybercat" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote :

"cybercat" wrote in message
...


Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?

Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the
pinna
would
be sufficiently noticeable. Tattoos aren't popular because the
registration
number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go
out
of
business. These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo
would
only
need be
a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and
managed.
A
large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as
noticible
as
tipping.

Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be
trapped
to be scanned.

I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral
organizations.
Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for
identifying
managed ferals.


So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear
tipping
for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right
then
cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
suspected,
just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do.
That
is
what
I feared.



Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
cats
ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
trapper.

A tattoo sure as hell would be visible to a trapper at night. When cat
was
trapped *in* the trap- the trapper could *clearly* see a tattoo from a
few
inches outside of the trap and could then simply release the cat on the
spot.



So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony?


Err, records and pictures... and err, memory? Most managers *know* every
cat in their
colonies.

Do you work with ferals? Sounds like you're calling plays from the
bleachers.

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Phil P. wrote:

That is
the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
actually
trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered.

Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
control. Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.

Sure. But the tipped ear *also* often tells the TNR team whether or
not it is worth setting the trap at all.

Cutting half the tail off would serve the same purpose- . My concern is the
*cat*- not peoples' convenience. I'd certainly rather go through the
inconvenience of trapping the cat and releasing her than having the cat
tipped.



Hey - if a tattoo was free and would work, I'd be all for it. I don't
know anyone who has tried it, and I still highly doubt it is going to
serve the purpose of ID'ing the cat (x'ed or non-X'ed) from a distance
(which is imperative for the reason stated above) and be easily seen
even when the cat is in the trap, as well as on dark cats.


If anyone has done it and it works, please post.

The vets I worked with for TNR would in no way tatoo for free -

I didn't say "free". Remember, we're not talking about a lot of intricate
numbers- just an
"X" or "M". You're complicating a very simple issue.

Phil

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...


Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing

Tipping is free.


Only for mohels.



and only
take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
early
neuters.


There's no way you are going to see the inside
of a cat's ear at night from a distance.

You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance.

Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
setting the trap.


You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's best" when
you don't have to deal with it. Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
ear for my convenience.



You'd see the tattoo when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
'cause it's ****ed.


The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a few
minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?





Sometimes you can barely make
out the cat, or the tipped ear. And it still doesn't address
dark-skinned cats.

Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white--
which
would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.

I highly doubt white ink is going to be visible on dark skinned cat.


The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it. The problem is
tipping has become routine policy.


Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

Phil P. wrote:
Tipping is free.

Only for mohels.

LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.

Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
setting the trap.


You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's best" when
you don't have to deal with it.

I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now. I have worked with
feral groups in the past. In fact I have a trap set now for a sly
little grey female that's haunting our neighborhood. I think the poor
thing was dumped. Sure, I'll trap her tip or not, but there have been
other instances where people have asked me to trap just to get the cat
neutered (a stray/feral they were feeding) and one of the questions I
have asked is "does the cat have a tipped ear"? It's a Universal
signal.

Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
ear for my convenience.

That's a waste of time. Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
precious. Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
full-time jobs.


You'd see the tattoo when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
'cause it's ****ed.


The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a few
minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?

Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.

Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
silhouette.

The problem is
tipping has become routine policy.

A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.


Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

It doesn't bother me. The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
to raise kittens with little to eat. Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me. Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs.

-L.

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Phil P. wrote:
Tipping is free.

Only for mohels.

LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.

Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
setting the trap.


You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's best"
when
you don't have to deal with it.

I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now.


You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.


It's a Universal
signal.


That's the problem- and probably too late to correct because its so
convenient and its accepted as routine. I just don't believe in tipping
cats. I don't like it and I won't support it.


Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat
and
releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of
the
ear for my convenience.

That's a waste of time.


To *you*. Not to me and the people I work with. We just have different
values. I don't believe in tipping a cat for the convenience of people.


Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
precious. Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
full-time jobs.


I have two full time 'jobs' and a "part-time" job and I make the time.




You'd see the tattoo when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip. The
cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
'cause it's ****ed.


The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a
few
minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?

Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone in
a covered trap?




The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.

Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
silhouette.


And? I never said tipping isn't easier to see.



The problem is
tipping has become routine policy.

A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.


Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram





Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go
out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

It doesn't bother me.


Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.


The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
to raise kittens with little to eat.


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
can exist without the other. None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?



Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me.

Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they ok
by you too?



Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs.

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.

"Diane" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Phil P." wrote:

Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?


The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony. That's
how managed colonies should look.

Most stray cats I've
ever seen have been thin and matted, dirty, covered with sores, etc.

Sure. Many strays and ferals are in pretty bad shape before they're
managed. Neutering drastically reduces aggression and the wounds and
abscesses that follow, and ample and regular food drastically reduces fights
over food. Without the competitive pressures of sex and food the true social
nature of the cats emerge and the cats are free to shape their own little
community anyway they please. Each colony actually has their own little,
unique culture.

Phil

"Wendy" wrote
So how are you going to assess how far you've gotten neutering a colony?
How
will you know when you've gotten them all? Are you suggesting you have to
re-trap the whole lot to know?

We have not established beyond doubt that our imaginary ear tattoos
cannot be seen at a distance.