Declawing etc Illegal in Rome

Diane wrote:

In article ,
"Phil P." wrote:

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?


The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony.
That's how managed colonies should look.

I wasn't able to hear it -- I guess I was seeing him dealing with them
mostly one at a time.

Are ferals from a colony ever adopted? Honestly, several of those were
gorgeous. I have to say, if they can be managed without ear tipping,
I'm all for it.


A friend of mine out in California works with a group that manages the
ferals on on their employers (huge) property. When a cat turns out to be
receptive to human contact they do remove them from the coloney and place
them up for adoption. They don't try to tame the true ferals.

"Phil P." wrote

Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram


Phil that was a joy to see.

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Phil P. wrote:
Tipping is free.

Only for mohels.

LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.

Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when
you
are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
setting the trap.


You're calling plays from the bleachers- Its easy to say "what's
best"
when
you don't have to deal with it.

I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now.


You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
years.


It's a Universal
signal.


That's the problem- and probably too late to correct because its so
convenient and its accepted as routine. I just don't believe in tipping
cats. I don't like it and I won't support it.


Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
of the trappers. I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat
and
releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of
the
ear for my convenience.

That's a waste of time.


To *you*. Not to me and the people I work with. We just have different
values. I don't believe in tipping a cat for the convenience of people.


Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
precious. Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
full-time jobs.


I have two full time 'jobs' and a "part-time" job and I make the time.




You'd see the tattoo when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip.
The
cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
'cause it's ****ed.


The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a
few
minutes. Haven't you ever trapped a feral?

Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
a covered trap?




The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.

Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
silhouette.


And? I never said tipping isn't easier to see.



The problem is
tipping has become routine policy.

A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.


Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram





Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go
out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

It doesn't bother me.


Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.


The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
to raise kittens with little to eat.


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
can exist without the other. None of my colonies are tipped and they're
all
neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies-
except
for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?



Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me.

Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they
ok
by you too?



Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs.

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.



Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.

I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the practice
of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
as well or not. Can you explain that to me?

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"Wendy" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Wendy wrote:
Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a
cats
ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer
trapper.

It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
being the two biggest.

Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing
and
only
take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of
early
neuters.


There's no way you are going to see the inside
of a cat's ear at night from a distance.

You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance. You'd see the
tattoo
when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.


That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks
trying
to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find
they
didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.

Awwww, poor baby. Better to disfigure a beautiful animal for your
convenience, right?


This is exactly my take on it, and why people who obviously do care
about cats support and defend this practice--just for convenience.
I don't understand this, coming from obviously well-intentioned cat
lovers.

Phil P. wrote:

You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.

Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.

snip



Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone in
a covered trap?

Not always.


Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram



I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
know. I don't really care.




Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time, go
out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

It doesn't bother me.


Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.


Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
silly, AFAIC.


The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
to raise kittens with little to eat.


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
can exist without the other.

Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
TNR'd. And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.

None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?


Depends on how close she is. I don't have any problem aborting kittens
if that's what you are asking. I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
thought it was pretty sick. Most of any size may move but never take a
breath. I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
shelter. I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.


Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me.

Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they ok
by you too?

I am talking about the TNR system.


Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs.

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.

It's still disfiguring.

-L.

"-L." wrote in message
ups.com...

Phil P. wrote:

You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
years.

Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.

snip



Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
a covered trap?

Not always.


Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram



I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
know. I don't really care.


And this is the crux of the matter, when it comes to you.




Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time,
go
out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about
it.

It doesn't bother me.


Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.


Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
silly, AFAIC.

Why would you want to cut off a part of an animal--any part--if you
don't HAVE to? That's the real question. Your callousness here is the
same callousness we see when you tell people to return cats to kill
shelters just because they have a behavioral issue. Your indifference
to the individual cats does not make you look like an "old pro,"
Lyn, as you seem to think. It reveals exactly what you are. A
hard-hearted control freak who likes to puff herself up by appearing
to be an "expert" at things--oftentimes to the detriment of other people
and other creatures, here, to cats.

The kind of person who argues against immediate vet care for injuries
and illnesses, so that you can give the impression that you are the
"expert" and those of us whose first concern is that cat the "novices."
Nobody cares about this kind of thing but you. It is a sign of the sort
of miserable insecurity that causes a great deal of harm in this world.
And that is the reason you are repulsive to me. I see right through you,
and I do care about these creatures more than I care about what people
think of me. Whether or not I am an "expert." It isn't just that you get on
my nerves. It isn't just that you cannot lose an argument without flying
into a frothy rage of "whatevers" and "duhs."


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
one
can exist without the other.

Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
TNR'd. And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.


Any time your own convenience is more important than protecting
the animal from needless harm, you are no advocate of cats.



Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs.

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.

It's still disfiguring.


And it still is necessary to provide a HUGE health benefit--unlike
cutting off the tip of the ear. You're wrong. And the horrible thing is
not that you won't admit it--it is that you will continue to promote
a practice that disfigures cats and is of no health benefit to them--
for your own convenience and to satisfy your own fragile ego.

Pathetic. Repulsive and pathetic.

cybercat wrote:
blah, blah ,blah, I'm so superior to you, blah, blah, blah...ad nauseum

Sit on your ass in the cold and the rain all night waiting on traps,
two or three weekends straight, and then maybe your input would mean
something. Until then, you're just another old boor.

-L.

Wendy wrote:

That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks trying
to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find they
didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.



Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid. In those days and weeks
you spend trying to trap an already neutered cat, you could trap and
neuter who-knows-how-many cats that *need* the service. I guess Phil
has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.

-L.

cybercat wrote:

Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.

I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the practice
of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
as well or not. Can you explain that to me?

I'll tell ya what, Slurpy Grrl. You go find an poorly managed colony,
and spend the next couple years TNRing all of the cats there. Tattoo
all of the ears on all the cats while you are having them tested,
vaccinated and neutered. (Better start saving your pennies now - this
isn't an inexpensive hobby.) Come back and report to us how well the
tatoos work at helping you to ID cats - in the dark, in silhouette, and
during poor weather conditions when visibilty is low.

If, once you do all that, you are able to honestly (I know honesty is
a stretch for you, or need I mention the pig patrol incident?) report
that the ear tatoo - which IMO, if done properly is going to be just
about as disfiguring as a simple tip - is effective in helping to ID
previously TNR'ed cats, I will change my practice.

Until then, why don't you have a nice, big, hot, cup of Shut the ****
Up.

-L.

"-L." wrote in message
ups.com...

Phil P. wrote:

You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few
years.

Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.



You said "I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now." "Now" gave me
the impression that you've just begun trapping. Otherwise, you would have
said "I trap cats too".




snip



Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
a covered trap?

Not always.


Nothing is "always" and 'never". Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its the
strays and pet cats that are frantic.




Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC? About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram



I don't know anything about them. They may manage their colony in such
a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
know. I don't really care.


Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country. In
fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
by NC.







Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-) In the mean time,
go
out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about
it.

It doesn't bother me.


Like I said, we have different values. Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.


Yeah, whatever, Phil. It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism. Most
people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly". That's just
silly, AFAIC.


No, its not a matter of looking silly. Its a matter of disfiguring a cat for
convenience. Many people feel they can do whatever they like to ferals
because they're "helping" them and otherwise the cats would be killed. The
problem is tipping has become so convenient and routine that nobody wants to
change it- or even knows how do anything else.





The lucky ones are the ones with tips. The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and
trying
to raise kittens with little to eat.


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
one
can exist without the other.

Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
TNR'd.

No- Duh- you said the "lucky ones are the ones with tips. The unlucky ones
are
the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with
little to eat." --- which implies non-tipped ferals are "out there still
breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with little to eat" -- which
clearly not true. *Many* non-tipped ferals are neutered and managed.

For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.


And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.


Its the *only* system that has been tried. Doesn't mean its the best. For
that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
even easier to see. Same principal.



None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
neutered. Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies-
except
for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
them. I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens
are
viable and would have to be killed. What would you do?


Depends on how close she is.


I said the third trimester.


I don't have any problem aborting kittens
if that's what you are asking. I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
thought it was pretty sick. Most of any size may move but never take a
breath. I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
shelter. I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.


So, would you abort a queen in her third trimester when the kittens are
viable? If so, the *kittens* would be *killed* not aborted.




Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me.

Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good
quality
of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are
they ok
by you too?

I am talking about the TNR system.


There is no TNR system- that's the problem. Different cities and towns all
have their own methods.




Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too. I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs.

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.

It's still disfiguring.


Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering prevents
countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
difference.

Phil