Declawing etc Illegal in Rome

"cybercat" wrote in message
...

Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than
anyone
else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the
process.
It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.


It probably goes against your nature because its mutilation without any
benefit for the cat.



I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the
practice
of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
as well or not. Can you explain that to me?


Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing to
do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through. I've had very serious-
almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always the
same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify neutered
ferals. I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not make
it the right thing to do to a cat. I don't even like the idea of tattooing!
But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form of
the cat.

Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
I don't know anything about them

I've been watching this discussion with some amusement because it became
clear very quickly who actually knows what they are doing and who the
poser is that doesn't. You have made some very good points WRT to
eartipping and I have no doubt that the Feral Cat Coalition and Alley
Cat Allies hold the same views. Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both
practice eartipping and agree with the reasons you have stated defending
the practice in this thread. From:
http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/eartipping.htm

"When we first started working with feral cats, we avoided eartipping as
it seemed like a kind of mutilation. But everything else we tried
failed. Taking photos of the neutered cats was fine if you saw the cats
often and could easily tell similar-looking ones apart. But in colonies
where the cats were all black and white and the caretaker caught random
glimpses, the photos were useless. We tried tattooing the inner ears,
but then it was impossible to tell at a distance whether the cat had the
tattoo and needed to be trapped or not.*

We were won over to eartipping when we had a cat operated on who had
already been spayed, but not eartipped. Fortunately, the veterinarian
saw the scar and stopped the procedure. Nonetheless, the cat was
unnecessarily trapped and anesthetized, with all the corresponding
stress.*

There may still be rare exceptions when eartipping is not needed, such
as a few cats who never leave the caretaker's backyard, but in the vast
majority of cases, it ends up being to the cats' benefit to be easily
recognized as neutered, and not only for the purpose of avoiding being
re-trapped and operated upon. In New York City, the official animal
control agency (the Center for Animal Care and Control) has an informal
policy of not trying to trap eartipped cats because the eartip shows the
animal is being cared for."

Keep up the good work, Lyn!

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...

Wendy wrote:

That still leaves a trapper potentially spending hours, days, weeks
trying
to trap a cat unnecessarily only to finally get the critter and find
they
didn't need to spend the time on this particular cat.



Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid.


It seems stupid to you because you don't understand it-- we just have
different values and priorities. I just have a little more respect for cats.
Its kinda like rhythm- either you have it or you don't.

In those days and weeks
you spend trying to trap an already neutered cat, you could trap and
neuter who-knows-how-many cats that *need* the service.


You're over-complicating a very simple issue- which is a sign of lack of
experience, since I know you're not stupid. Trapping is not as difficult
as it seems to you - if it is,
you're doing something wrong.


I guess Phil
has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.

Naa, its a matter of priorities and values- yours are just different than
mine. I just don't feel cutting off the tip of a cat's ear just to make my
job easier is the right thing to do to cat. Its as simple as that.

On Sat 12 Nov 2005 07:40:00p, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav
):

Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
I don't know anything about them

I've been watching this discussion with some amusement because
it became clear very quickly who actually knows what they are
doing and who the poser is that doesn't. You have made some very
good points WRT to eartipping and I have no doubt that the Feral
Cat Coalition and Alley Cat Allies hold the same views.
Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both practice eartipping and
agree with the reasons you have stated defending the practice in
this thread. From:
http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/eartipping.htm

"When we first started working with feral cats, we avoided
eartipping as it seemed like a kind of mutilation. But
everything else we tried failed. Taking photos of the neutered
cats was fine if you saw the cats often and could easily tell
similar-looking ones apart. But in colonies where the cats were
all black and white and the caretaker caught random glimpses,
the photos were useless. We tried tattooing the inner ears, but
then it was impossible to tell at a distance whether the cat had
the tattoo and needed to be trapped or not.

We were won over to eartipping when we had a cat operated on who
had already been spayed, but not eartipped. Fortunately, the
veterinarian saw the scar and stopped the procedure.
Nonetheless, the cat was unnecessarily trapped and anesthetized,
with all the corresponding stress.

There may still be rare exceptions when eartipping is not
needed, such as a few cats who never leave the caretaker's
backyard, but in the vast majority of cases, it ends up being to
the cats' benefit to be easily recognized as neutered, and not
only for the purpose of avoiding being re-trapped and operated
upon. In New York City, the official animal control agency (the
Center for Animal Care and Control) has an informal policy of
not trying to trap eartipped cats because the eartip shows the
animal is being cared for."

Keep up the good work, Lyn!

Megan


Good info. While ear-tipping may seem like mutilation to a small
degree, it doesn't hurt them, and it doesn't hurt the overall
beauty of a cat, as modeled by my own former feral, Bonnie in this
pic.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shambondow/detail?.dir=/2a54&.dnm=d37e.jpg&.src=ph

This is the tried and true method.

--
Cheryl

"Phil P." wrote

Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing
to
do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through. I've had very
serious-
almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always
the
same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify neutered
ferals. I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not
make
it the right thing to do to a cat. I don't even like the idea of
tattooing!
But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form
of
the cat.


I have to agree. I note from the article that Megan posted that the more
honest of those rescuers who use ear tipping are bothered by it. It is a
shame that they don't act on that to find a better way.

"cybercat" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote

Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing
to
do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through. I've had very
serious-
almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always
the
same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify
neutered
ferals. I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not
make
it the right thing to do to a cat. I don't even like the idea of
tattooing!
But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form
of
the cat.


I have to agree. I note from the article that Megan posted that the more
honest of those rescuers who use ear tipping are bothered by it. It is a
shame that they don't act on that to find a better way.


The problem is, better ways involve a bit more work- that's why it will
never change.

The founder of Neighborhood Cats and author of the article must feel as
uncomfortable about ear tipping as I do since he didn't tip his own colony
as you can clearly see in the video.

Phil P. wrote:


Bingo. That's why this argument is so stupid.


It seems stupid to you because you don't understand it-- we just have
different values and priorities. I just have a little more respect for cats.
Its kinda like rhythm- either you have it or you don't.

No Phil, it's a stupid argument. You can belittle me all you want - it
has no effect.


In those days and weeks
you spend trying to trap an already neutered cat, you could trap and
neuter who-knows-how-many cats that *need* the service.


You're over-complicating a very simple issue- which is a sign of lack of
experience, since I know you're not stupid. Trapping is not as difficult
as it seems to you - if it is,
you're doing something wrong.

I'm sure. I'm sure you have never spent weeks trying to get a wiley
cat into a trap. Now who sounds as if they have no experience, Phil?


I guess Phil
has time to waste. No one else I know of who TNRs does.

Naa, its a matter of priorities and values- yours are just different than
mine.

Yeah, my family comes first. Always will. I don't have time to waste
trapping already TNR'ed cats.

I just don't feel cutting off the tip of a cat's ear just to make my
job easier is the right thing to do to cat. Its as simple as that.

It has nothing to do with making "my job easier". It has everything to
do with putting more cats through the system, and signaling to whomever
may end up with the cat that he's been TNR'ed. It's great that you
have time and energy to devote to a managed colony. I don't. I do
what I can, as I can, and in doing so, I adhere to the wishes of the
TNR groups nearby - and every one I have ever worked with tips. And I
don't have a problem with because it serves an important purpose, it
whether or not you think it's ugly, and no matter how you try to turn
this into a personal attack.

-L.

Phil P. wrote:


Yeah, Phil. I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
so. Maybe more. I''m a newbie.

You said "I do have to deal with it, Phil. I trap cats now." "Now" gave me
the impression that you've just begun trapping. Otherwise, you would have
said "I trap cats too".

Um, I'll choose my own verbage, TYVM. What I meant was I am trapping
cats currently.



Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral. Sigh.


And? The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone
in
a covered trap?

Not always.


Nothing is "always" and 'never". Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its the
strays and pet cats that are frantic.


I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off. And yes, they were
feral.




Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country. In
fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
by NC.

That's stupid.

snip


What are you talking about??? Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
one
can exist without the other.

Well Duh. The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
TNR'd.

No- Duh- you said the "lucky ones are the ones with tips. The unlucky ones
are
the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with
little to eat." --- which implies non-tipped ferals are "out there still
breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with little to eat" -- which
clearly not true. *Many* non-tipped ferals are neutered and managed.

For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.

You are misinterpreting what I am writing. The lucky cats are the cats
with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
TNR'd and therefore are lucky. It is the untipped cats in such areas
that aren't so lucky.



And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.


Its the *only* system that has been tried.

Some TNR programs have tried tattoos.

Doesn't mean its the best. For
that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
even easier to see. Same principal.


Don't be silly. Cutting off a tail is vastly more invasive than an ear
tip, Phil. Have you ever ben present in surgery when the ear tip is
cut off? Slice, powder, and the cat is off to recovery.



snip

There is no TNR system- that's the problem. Different cities and towns all
have their own methods.

"The system" as in the system one uses. The more cats I can TNR, the
better. That involves tipping. I'm sorry that upsets you so much.
Would you rather I - and everyone who tips - stop trapping and
neutering cats altogether?


Oh no no no. Its not that simple or black and white. Neutering prevents
countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
difference.

It's still disfigurement, no matter if it is for what *you* deem "good"
cause or not. You can't have it both ways.

-L.

wrote:
Lyn wrote about Neighborhood Cats:
I don't know anything about them

I've been watching this discussion with some amusement because it became
clear very quickly who actually knows what they are doing and who the
poser is that doesn't. You have made some very good points WRT to
eartipping and I have no doubt that the Feral Cat Coalition and Alley
Cat Allies hold the same views. Neighborhood Cats and the ASPCA both
practice eartipping and agree with the reasons you have stated defending
the practice in this thread. From:
http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/eartipping.htm

"When we first started working with feral cats, we avoided eartipping as
it seemed like a kind of mutilation. But everything else we tried
failed. Taking photos of the neutered cats was fine if you saw the cats
often and could easily tell similar-looking ones apart. But in colonies
where the cats were all black and white and the caretaker caught random
glimpses, the photos were useless. We tried tattooing the inner ears,
but then it was impossible to tell at a distance whether the cat had the
tattoo and needed to be trapped or not.

We were won over to eartipping when we had a cat operated on who had
already been spayed, but not eartipped. Fortunately, the veterinarian
saw the scar and stopped the procedure. Nonetheless, the cat was
unnecessarily trapped and anesthetized, with all the corresponding
stress.

There may still be rare exceptions when eartipping is not needed, such
as a few cats who never leave the caretaker's backyard, but in the vast
majority of cases, it ends up being to the cats' benefit to be easily
recognized as neutered, and not only for the purpose of avoiding being
re-trapped and operated upon. In New York City, the official animal
control agency (the Center for Animal Care and Control) has an informal
policy of not trying to trap eartipped cats because the eartip shows the
animal is being cared for."

Keep up the good work, Lyn!

Megan

Thanks and thanks for posting that. I am sure there are many groups
and indiviuals who don't tip - personally I think there needs to be a
visual signal that the cat has been TNRed. I don't have faith that a
large tattoo would be any good - a lot of times you only see
silhouettes in the dark.

-L.

Cheryl wrote:

Good info. While ear-tipping may seem like mutilation to a small
degree, it doesn't hurt them, and it doesn't hurt the overall
beauty of a cat, as modeled by my own former feral, Bonnie in this
pic.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shambondow/detail?.dir=/2a54&.dnm=d37e.jpg&.src=ph

This is the tried and true method.

--
Cheryl

My Mom's cat Otis was tipped - not by a TNR program, but by another
cat! People always asked if he was a former feral. Very pretty
Bonnie, BTW. I'm a sucker for black cats.
-L.