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#31
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"whitershadeofpale" wrote in message ups.com... Phil P. wrote: stuff Hello What do you think? Do cats in the wild live as long as domestic cats. I'd reason to say they don't, too many predators in the wild. btw, I found a cool ad today I thought you might like: http://www.bitoffun.com/weirds-beerhelpugly.htm ok ok so it's old, but still funny |
#32
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Trish wrote: btw, I found a cool ad today I thought you might like: Ah, very good point. I just figured rabbit, and birds are wet food. http://www.bitoffun.com/weirds-beerhelpugly.htm ok ok so it's old, but still funny Yes it is! Classic! |
#33
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Phil P. wrote: You've got mine. Dryfood is way better than soft canned food. That's far from the truth. There are only *three* dry diets that have a slight effect on the teeth- but the dental benefits don't offset the systemic risks. "Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods." (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50). Phil, The article you are referencing did not *prove* dry foods bad for cats. It was an associative review only. The ONLY thing that has been proven in favor of canned foods is the issue of greater excretion of water through the urine rather than the feces. Increased dilution of the urine will reduce the chance of urolith formation. Urolith formation affects less than 2% of cats at some point in thier life. In the rush to canned food - their is equal chance the cat will be fed a canned food of lessor quality and more risk than a good quality dry food. Moving a cat from a high quality dry food to a poor quality canned food with increased levels of calcium and phos would not likely be beneficial in the long run. Additionally increased levels of selenium and iodine are commonly found in canned foods compared to dry foods. Both of which are strongly implicated in hyperthyroid disease in cats. An assumption that any canned food is better than any dry food is erroneous and there are risks associated with anything we do. I am not opposed to canned food - I feed my own cats a canned food for the majority of their caloric intake - but I don't think it appropriate to insinuate that all dry foods are bad and all canned foods are better. Such is simply not the case by any means. The original post was relevant to tartar and palque in cats teeth. If the food has passed VOHC criteria, then it will have an affect on the reduction of plaque and tartar (assuming it was approved for both), For a list of VOHC foods see their website at VOHC.org I think. Dry food versus canned food has little impact on oral health, rather it is the calcium level in the food - regardless of type - that is the dominant factor is plaque and tartar deposition. |
#34
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PawsForThought wrote: It has been proven that a canned diet has more benefits to the cat's overall health than a dry kibble diet. Peer reviewed published citations please. Other than forcing more water to be excreted through the urine with canned food versus dry food excreting more through the feces - something that would positively affect less than 2% of cats with urolith problems - I would like to see any peer reviewed published clinical trials which prove such a claim. |
#35
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"Steve Crane" wrote in message oups.com... Phil P. wrote: You've got mine. Dryfood is way better than soft canned food. That's far from the truth. There are only *three* dry diets that have a slight effect on the teeth- but the dental benefits don't offset the systemic risks. "Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods." (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50). Phil, The article you are referencing did not *prove* dry foods bad for cats. It was an associative review only. Steve, I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no benefits of feeding dry food- unless its a dental diet, and still, the benefits are minimal and don't offset the risks. The ONLY thing that has been proven in favor of canned foods is the issue of greater excretion of water through the urine rather than the feces. Increased dilution of the urine will reduce the chance of urolith formation. Urolith formation affects less than 2% of cats at some point in thier life. That 2% statistic comes from the Veterinary Medical Data Base at Purdue It only represents a portion of the cats seen at the 26 veterinary university hospitals in N.A. A very small % of owners bring their cats to vet school hospitals. Thus, its not representative of the owned feline population that develop FLUTD or urolithiasis. 2% still represents millions of cats! Any risk is unacceptable if its an unnecessary risk. Here's a quote by DiBartola and Tony Buffington from Slatter's Small Animal Surgery: "An increased risk of FUS has been reported in cats fed exclusively dry food, and the same or less risk has been observed in those fed canned and other types of foods. An analysis of these data has suggested a dose-response effect on risk with regard to feeding dry food." Here's a quote from the previous edition of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition: "Workers in Denmark found that the risk of developing FUS was seven times greater when a regular dry cat food made up most of the diet, as compared to when it was never fed. In the United States the risk of developing FUS was found to be 1.7 times greater when a regular commercial dry food made up 50-75% of the diet, 3.1 times greater when it made up 75-99%) of the diet, and 6.7 times greater when only a dry food of this type was fed." In the rush to canned food - their is equal chance the cat will be fed a canned food of lessor quality and more risk than a good quality dry food. What rush? A caretaker is just as likey to choose a low quality dry food as they are to choose a low quality canned food. Moving a cat from a high quality dry food to a poor quality canned food with increased levels of calcium and phos would not likely be beneficial in the long run. Who mentioned feeding a low quality canned food? Where did that come from? If a caretaker is feeding a high quality dry food why would they swich to a lower quality canned food? If a person is feeding a high-quality dry food, they are more likely to choose an equal or higher quality canned food. Additionally increased levels of selenium and iodine are commonly found in canned foods compared to dry foods. Both of which are strongly implicated in hyperthyroid disease in cats. Steve, many studies were done thoughout the years that looked into the possibility of dietary iodine being a causative factor in hyperthyroidism. None were ever found. If you know of one that me and our vets missed, let me know. An assumption that any canned food is better than any dry food is erroneous and there are risks associated with anything we do. I am not opposed to canned food - I feed my own cats a canned food for the majority of their caloric intake - but I don't think it appropriate to insinuate that all dry foods are bad and all canned foods are better. Such is simply not the case by any means. I disagree. A canned food is better for a cat than an *equal quality* dry food. The dry and canned foods in the study I cited were the same brand. The original post was relevant to tartar and palque in cats teeth. If the food has passed VOHC criteria, then it will have an affect on the reduction of plaque and tartar (assuming it was approved for both), For a list of VOHC foods see their website at VOHC.org I think. Dry food versus canned food has little impact on oral health, rather it is the calcium level in the food - regardless of type - that is the dominant factor is plaque and tartar deposition. On that I agree. |
#36
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:07:07 -0400, "Phil P."
wrote: I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no benefits of feeding dry food- unless its a dental diet, and still, the benefits are minimal and don't offset the risks. Are there any canned diets that are specifically for seniors. Not just saying the word senior, but having supplements for seniors? How about glucosamine? I switched to Royal Canin food because of the specific foods. I wish they had canned, but they don't. I have never seen a canned food with glucosamine. And I have a hard time getting anything mixed in to the right proportions without having the cat turn it down as obviously contaminated. I would also be interested to know. Are there any studies that compare dry diets, wet diets, and mixed diets? I have seen the dry vs wet, but I feed a mixed diet, and it seems like that has the good features of both. The get the dental cleaning and the supplements I want. But they also get the canned food (except for Jay Jay, who won't eat it yet). -- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com |
#37
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Steve Crane wrote:
In the rush to canned food - their is equal chance the cat will be fed a canned food of lessor quality and more risk than a good quality dry food. Moving a cat from a high quality dry food to a poor quality canned food with increased levels of calcium and phos would not likely be beneficial in the long run. Additionally increased levels of selenium and iodine are commonly found in canned foods compared to dry foods. Both of which are strongly implicated in hyperthyroid disease in cats. Steve, who is suggesting a poor quality canned food? Did I miss something? |
#38
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Steve Crane wrote:
PawsForThought wrote: It has been proven that a canned diet has more benefits to the cat's overall health than a dry kibble diet. Peer reviewed published citations please. Other than forcing more water to be excreted through the urine with canned food versus dry food excreting more through the feces - something that would positively affect less than 2% of cats with urolith problems - I would like to see any peer reviewed published clinical trials which prove such a claim. Since I don't have access to published peer reviewed journals, I will assume Phil P. would be a better person to answer than me. He's very knowledgeable about dry verus canned diets. I can of course give you anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure that probably won't mean much to you. |
#39
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"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message
... On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:07:07 -0400, "Phil P." wrote: I'd say its enough to make people err on the side of caution since there was a direct association between dry food and IC, and also because there are no benefits of feeding dry food- unless its a dental diet, and still, the benefits are minimal and don't offset the risks. Are there any canned diets that are specifically for seniors. Not just saying the word senior, but having supplements for seniors? How about glucosamine? I switched to Royal Canin food because of the specific foods. I wish they had canned, but they don't. I have never seen a canned food with glucosamine. And I have a hard time getting anything mixed in to the right proportions without having the cat turn it down as obviously contaminated. Science Diet has "Senior" formula in canned. The problem is that mine won't eat it. They *LOVE* the SD "Senior Advanced Formula" dry food and still free feed on that - but the only canned food they'll eat is Fancy Feast "Tender Beef Feast" (two cans in the AM and two cans in the PM, so one can a day per cat). If my vet had not recommended canned food to get more water into Bandit, my 15-year-old, because of *slightly* elevated creatinin and BUN levels, I would not have even tried canned food since they've all done *SO* well on the SD dry all their lives (nary an illness and none even had to have dentals except Bandit who's had 2, her first at age 13). And actually, Bandit's labs haven't changed with the addition of the canned food - the only difference I see is that she doesn't get dandruff any more so she must be getting more oil into her hair. Hugs, CatNipped I would also be interested to know. Are there any studies that compare dry diets, wet diets, and mixed diets? I have seen the dry vs wet, but I feed a mixed diet, and it seems like that has the good features of both. The get the dental cleaning and the supplements I want. But they also get the canned food (except for Jay Jay, who won't eat it yet). -- Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com |
#40
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CatNipped wrote: Bandit's labs haven't changed with the addition of the canned food - the only difference I see is that she doesn't get dandruff any more so she must be getting more oil into her hair. Hugs, CatNipped After much deliberation, and contemplation, I think it's safe to say that kibble is better for the teeth, and wet food is better for over all long term health. So, you take wet food, put it in a pastry bag, and make all sorts of pretty little shapes, put them on a greased cookie sheet, bake at 350 for 275 for 47 mins. This makes crunchy little meals. (or NOT) I think the REAL benefit of wet food is the water. Not that the quality is better, of course it is not. There are as many vitamins in both! 80 % of a cat body is water, so logically a higher water content food is preferred. Just like foods higher in water content are better for you and me. A cat that eats only wet food will need more intense dental care than one who eats dry only. A cat that gets a combination of wet and dry, will be somewhere in between with his dental care |
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