Using k/d as a preventative?

Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal). This boy's litter brother died within the last 2 years of
renal failure, so I would say CRF runs in the family (although the PKD
I think may have been a one-off; the cat concerned was *very* inbred,
and I have not heard of any others in that family, on the grapevine).

My question to the CRF afficionados, then, is this: Would it be a
good idea to put Che on a renal diet pre-emptively, as it were? He
currently eats Hills Senior mixed with raw kangaroo, minced chicken
frames and some beef mince; he only eats a little dry food as before
I got him he had some tooth and gum problems (he has since had a few
teeth removed, but he does't seek out "crunchy" stuff). He has a
great appetite for the wet food, but is skinnier than I would like, to
be honest. He is bright and appears to be enjoying life, but I would
like to do the best I can to prevent what could be likely to carry him
off down the track.

Any comments/shared experiences would be appreciated!
Cheers,
Catherine

"Schroedinger's Cat" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal). This boy's litter brother died within the last 2 years of
renal failure, so I would say CRF runs in the family (although the PKD
I think may have been a one-off; the cat concerned was *very* inbred,
and I have not heard of any others in that family, on the grapevine).

My question to the CRF afficionados, then, is this: Would it be a
good idea to put Che on a renal diet pre-emptively, as it were? He
currently eats Hills Senior mixed with raw kangaroo, minced chicken
frames and some beef mince; he only eats a little dry food as before
I got him he had some tooth and gum problems (he has since had a few
teeth removed, but he does't seek out "crunchy" stuff). He has a
great appetite for the wet food, but is skinnier than I would like, to
be honest. He is bright and appears to be enjoying life, but I would
like to do the best I can to prevent what could be likely to carry him
off down the track.

Any comments/shared experiences would be appreciated!
Cheers,
Catherine

Catherine,

I think k/d is far too low in protein for all but end-stage renal cats to
control azotemia, acidosis , and hyperphosphatemia . Protein restriction
can result in protein depletion and decreased body weight and muscle mass
as endogenous proteins are catabolized to meet the cat's protein needs.
Protein restriction can also result in impaired immunological response and
resistance to infection, reduced hemoglobin production and anemia.

Most veterinary nephrologists recommend that dietary protein reduction be
initiated only when the cat;s blood urea nitrogen concentration is between
60 and 80 mg/dI.

HTH,

Phil

"Schroedinger's Cat" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal). This boy's litter brother died within the last 2 years of
renal failure, so I would say CRF runs in the family (although the PKD
I think may have been a one-off; the cat concerned was *very* inbred,
and I have not heard of any others in that family, on the grapevine).

My question to the CRF afficionados, then, is this: Would it be a
good idea to put Che on a renal diet pre-emptively, as it were? He
currently eats Hills Senior mixed with raw kangaroo, minced chicken
frames and some beef mince; he only eats a little dry food as before
I got him he had some tooth and gum problems (he has since had a few
teeth removed, but he does't seek out "crunchy" stuff). He has a
great appetite for the wet food, but is skinnier than I would like, to
be honest. He is bright and appears to be enjoying life, but I would
like to do the best I can to prevent what could be likely to carry him
off down the track.

Any comments/shared experiences would be appreciated!
Cheers,
Catherine

Catherine,

I think k/d is far too low in protein for all but end-stage renal cats to
control azotemia, acidosis , and hyperphosphatemia . Protein restriction
can result in protein depletion and decreased body weight and muscle mass
as endogenous proteins are catabolized to meet the cat's protein needs.
Protein restriction can also result in impaired immunological response and
resistance to infection, reduced hemoglobin production and anemia.

Most veterinary nephrologists recommend that dietary protein reduction be
initiated only when the cat;s blood urea nitrogen concentration is between
60 and 80 mg/dI.

HTH,

Phil

(Schroedinger's Cat) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal).

Catherine,
There is no data to support using a renal failure diet as a
prophylactic treatment. In other words there have never been any
clinical trials with two groups of cats, one fed a renal failure diet
after age 10 and another group fed a more typical diet after age 10,
and then both groups followed through the remainder of thier life to
see if feeding a low phos, moderately low protein, high N3 food would
reduce the number of cats that succumb to renal failure or increase
the period of time before they succumb to renal failure.
The problem with current testing process, and the results you
describe is that we will not detect renal failure until 70%+ of the
kidney is destroyed and the cat is on an inexorable path toward death.
There is a new test available from Heska that is called the ERD (Early
Renal Detection) that looks for micro albumin in the urine - where it
shouldn't be. The test is not very specific. In other words it can
also rect to other disease issues in the cat. That's not all bad as it
may give you an early view of other undetected disease problems your
cat has.
There have been a couple of good studies showing clear advantages
to using a phosphorus restricted and moderately protein restricted
diet in early renal failure. The last major Grade 1 clinical trial was
in dogs and illustrated that dogs in early renal failure lived twice
as long when placed on a renal diet than if left on a typical grocery
food. Waltham did a similar clinical trial in cats, with similar
results in a few years ago.
If you can get the ERD test done that would be helpful. The use of
k/d or another brand of renal failure diet may not be warranted. A
good alternative might be g/d or another brand of early renal failure
diet.

(Schroedinger's Cat) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal).

Catherine,
There is no data to support using a renal failure diet as a
prophylactic treatment. In other words there have never been any
clinical trials with two groups of cats, one fed a renal failure diet
after age 10 and another group fed a more typical diet after age 10,
and then both groups followed through the remainder of thier life to
see if feeding a low phos, moderately low protein, high N3 food would
reduce the number of cats that succumb to renal failure or increase
the period of time before they succumb to renal failure.
The problem with current testing process, and the results you
describe is that we will not detect renal failure until 70%+ of the
kidney is destroyed and the cat is on an inexorable path toward death.
There is a new test available from Heska that is called the ERD (Early
Renal Detection) that looks for micro albumin in the urine - where it
shouldn't be. The test is not very specific. In other words it can
also rect to other disease issues in the cat. That's not all bad as it
may give you an early view of other undetected disease problems your
cat has.
There have been a couple of good studies showing clear advantages
to using a phosphorus restricted and moderately protein restricted
diet in early renal failure. The last major Grade 1 clinical trial was
in dogs and illustrated that dogs in early renal failure lived twice
as long when placed on a renal diet than if left on a typical grocery
food. Waltham did a similar clinical trial in cats, with similar
results in a few years ago.
If you can get the ERD test done that would be helpful. The use of
k/d or another brand of renal failure diet may not be warranted. A
good alternative might be g/d or another brand of early renal failure
diet.

(Steve Crane) wrote in message . com...
(Schroedinger's Cat) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal).

Catherine,
There is no data to support using a renal failure diet as a
prophylactic treatment. In other words there have never been any
clinical trials with two groups of cats, one fed a renal failure diet
after age 10 and another group fed a more typical diet after age 10,
and then both groups followed through the remainder of thier life to
see if feeding a low phos, moderately low protein, high N3 food would
reduce the number of cats that succumb to renal failure or increase
the period of time before they succumb to renal failure.
The problem with current testing process, and the results you
describe is that we will not detect renal failure until 70%+ of the
kidney is destroyed and the cat is on an inexorable path toward death.
There is a new test available from Heska that is called the ERD (Early
Renal Detection) that looks for micro albumin in the urine - where it
shouldn't be. The test is not very specific. In other words it can
also rect to other disease issues in the cat. That's not all bad as it
may give you an early view of other undetected disease problems your
cat has.
There have been a couple of good studies showing clear advantages
to using a phosphorus restricted and moderately protein restricted
diet in early renal failure. The last major Grade 1 clinical trial was
in dogs and illustrated that dogs in early renal failure lived twice
as long when placed on a renal diet than if left on a typical grocery
food. Waltham did a similar clinical trial in cats, with similar
results in a few years ago.
If you can get the ERD test done that would be helpful. The use of
k/d or another brand of renal failure diet may not be warranted. A
good alternative might be g/d or another brand of early renal failure
diet.

Replying here to both Steve and Phil

Thanks to the two of you, Steve and Phil, for your reply!

I wasn't sure if this msg made it to the group, as the computer
malfunctioned just as I hit the send button! But it did appear after
all...

I discussed the situation with my vet and he said there would probably
be not much point using a renal diet as a preventative (he said it
would probably do no harm, but it sounds like from what Phil said that
it might be counter-productive in terms of overall nutrition) unless
Che was actually losing protein in his urine. So for now he stays on
Senior diet, but my husband is bringing home some Multistix from the
hospital and I will test him for proteinuria. And I will ask Chris
(vet) about the ERD test. (I am sure there is something like that for
humans about the place, so the vets here probably know about it).
It's a real bugger that one can't identify failure easily until they
are decompensating (my horse vet said they could keep going on 1/3 of
1 kidney before you would see anything)...

I would like him to gain some weight though! (Actually that g/d diet
sounds like the happy medium - I will be looking into finding a
supplier).

Meanwhile, the 3 girls with possible FeLV exposure had their bloods
re-done on Saturday, but I probably won't hear until tomorrow...

Thanks!
Catherine

(Steve Crane) wrote in message . com...
(Schroedinger's Cat) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I have a 9year old male cat who last year had a close relative die
from polycystic kidney disease. I immediately had his kidneys
scanned, figuring that at the age of 8 his kidneys would be cystic if
they were going to be. The good news is that they weren't cystic at
all. However the specialist who ultrasounded him said that both renal
cortices were slightly thickened, as if he may be in very early renal
insufficiency which was not yet manifest in any other way (his urea
and creatinine were normal at that time (Aug 03), and were re-tested
about 3 months later when he had a febrile illness, and were still
normal).

Catherine,
There is no data to support using a renal failure diet as a
prophylactic treatment. In other words there have never been any
clinical trials with two groups of cats, one fed a renal failure diet
after age 10 and another group fed a more typical diet after age 10,
and then both groups followed through the remainder of thier life to
see if feeding a low phos, moderately low protein, high N3 food would
reduce the number of cats that succumb to renal failure or increase
the period of time before they succumb to renal failure.
The problem with current testing process, and the results you
describe is that we will not detect renal failure until 70%+ of the
kidney is destroyed and the cat is on an inexorable path toward death.
There is a new test available from Heska that is called the ERD (Early
Renal Detection) that looks for micro albumin in the urine - where it
shouldn't be. The test is not very specific. In other words it can
also rect to other disease issues in the cat. That's not all bad as it
may give you an early view of other undetected disease problems your
cat has.
There have been a couple of good studies showing clear advantages
to using a phosphorus restricted and moderately protein restricted
diet in early renal failure. The last major Grade 1 clinical trial was
in dogs and illustrated that dogs in early renal failure lived twice
as long when placed on a renal diet than if left on a typical grocery
food. Waltham did a similar clinical trial in cats, with similar
results in a few years ago.
If you can get the ERD test done that would be helpful. The use of
k/d or another brand of renal failure diet may not be warranted. A
good alternative might be g/d or another brand of early renal failure
diet.

Replying here to both Steve and Phil

Thanks to the two of you, Steve and Phil, for your reply!

I wasn't sure if this msg made it to the group, as the computer
malfunctioned just as I hit the send button! But it did appear after
all...

I discussed the situation with my vet and he said there would probably
be not much point using a renal diet as a preventative (he said it
would probably do no harm, but it sounds like from what Phil said that
it might be counter-productive in terms of overall nutrition) unless
Che was actually losing protein in his urine. So for now he stays on
Senior diet, but my husband is bringing home some Multistix from the
hospital and I will test him for proteinuria. And I will ask Chris
(vet) about the ERD test. (I am sure there is something like that for
humans about the place, so the vets here probably know about it).
It's a real bugger that one can't identify failure easily until they
are decompensating (my horse vet said they could keep going on 1/3 of
1 kidney before you would see anything)...

I would like him to gain some weight though! (Actually that g/d diet
sounds like the happy medium - I will be looking into finding a
supplier).

Meanwhile, the 3 girls with possible FeLV exposure had their bloods
re-done on Saturday, but I probably won't hear until tomorrow...

Thanks!
Catherine