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  #141  
Old March 1st 04, 11:24 PM
Jacqueline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:16:03 +0000, Bob Brenchley.
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:03:45 +0000, Jacqueline
wrote:

In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the
hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in.


*sigh* I'm not digging anything. For the millionth time, I can offer
you evidence of my experience - you choose to ignore it. That's not my
fault.

I ignore it because I trust my own experience, and those of EVERY
single person I've come across who has ever worked with cats in the
UK,


Then you're only seeing what you want to see. I've owned cats, I've
worked with cats, I've had umpteen years of experience with a
particular branch of a national UK charity - and my experience differs
from yours. If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn
something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a
conversation and learn something about my experiences. But no, you'd
rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's
that. You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon
yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my
argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on
usenet."


  #142  
Old March 1st 04, 11:37 PM
Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quoth Bob Brenchley.:
There we are. A clear offer of evidence refused.


There is no evidence needed, she has already proved herself a liar and
a troll.


No she hasn't. Giving you an impression is not the same thing as
proving.

No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a
quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the
sociopathic to just start calling them a liar.


When someone claims something you know to be untrue it is quite normal
to call them a liar.


When they offer evidence to back up their position it's quite normal to
retreat from such a dogmatic position and consider that evidence.

Saying "that's not my
experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the
difference - saying "you're a liar" without a full investigation only
demonstrates that you regard any experience differing from your own
as non-existent,


In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the
hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in.


No she wasn't - you refused her every offer to back up her statements.

I can state, for the record, the fact that none of the UK's major
shelters (RSPCA, Cats Protection and Battersea) nor most of the
smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys,
will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This
has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the
grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats.


Put yourself in my shoes. I see person A shouting the same thing over
and over, whilst refusing to offer evidence for his assertions, or
consider evidence anyone else may put forward for theirs. I see
person B reasonably pointing out that her experience is different and
making an offer of evidence to back up her assertions. I don't know
either person, so I have no evidence as to either person's general
trustworthiness.

Confronted with that situation, who would you be more likely to take
seriously? Why?
--
Gwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject)

some girls wander by themselves
  #143  
Old March 1st 04, 11:37 PM
Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quoth Bob Brenchley.:
There we are. A clear offer of evidence refused.


There is no evidence needed, she has already proved herself a liar and
a troll.


No she hasn't. Giving you an impression is not the same thing as
proving.

No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a
quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the
sociopathic to just start calling them a liar.


When someone claims something you know to be untrue it is quite normal
to call them a liar.


When they offer evidence to back up their position it's quite normal to
retreat from such a dogmatic position and consider that evidence.

Saying "that's not my
experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the
difference - saying "you're a liar" without a full investigation only
demonstrates that you regard any experience differing from your own
as non-existent,


In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the
hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in.


No she wasn't - you refused her every offer to back up her statements.

I can state, for the record, the fact that none of the UK's major
shelters (RSPCA, Cats Protection and Battersea) nor most of the
smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys,
will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This
has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the
grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats.


Put yourself in my shoes. I see person A shouting the same thing over
and over, whilst refusing to offer evidence for his assertions, or
consider evidence anyone else may put forward for theirs. I see
person B reasonably pointing out that her experience is different and
making an offer of evidence to back up her assertions. I don't know
either person, so I have no evidence as to either person's general
trustworthiness.

Confronted with that situation, who would you be more likely to take
seriously? Why?
--
Gwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject)

some girls wander by themselves
  #144  
Old March 1st 04, 11:38 PM
Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quoth Jacqueline:
The only 'proof' is you insulting me, that's not proof, that's you
being an arse. One can only assume you're not a very educated man. I'd
like to have seen you at school/college/uni - 'no sir, I don't need to
produce evidence, I'm right and everybody else is wrong, and you're
all liars for contradicting me' !!


Some eminent professors have built careers on such arguments.
--
Gwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject)

some girls wander by themselves
  #145  
Old March 1st 04, 11:38 PM
Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quoth Jacqueline:
The only 'proof' is you insulting me, that's not proof, that's you
being an arse. One can only assume you're not a very educated man. I'd
like to have seen you at school/college/uni - 'no sir, I don't need to
produce evidence, I'm right and everybody else is wrong, and you're
all liars for contradicting me' !!


Some eminent professors have built careers on such arguments.
--
Gwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject)

some girls wander by themselves
  #146  
Old March 1st 04, 11:38 PM
Bob Brenchley.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:24:50 +0000, Jacqueline
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:16:03 +0000, Bob Brenchley.
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:03:45 +0000, Jacqueline
wrote:

In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the
hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in.

*sigh* I'm not digging anything. For the millionth time, I can offer
you evidence of my experience - you choose to ignore it. That's not my
fault.

I ignore it because I trust my own experience, and those of EVERY
single person I've come across who has ever worked with cats in the
UK,


Then you're only seeing what you want to see. I've owned cats, I've
worked with cats, I've had umpteen years of experience with a
particular branch of a national UK charity - and my experience differs
from yours.


No, but your lying and trolling does.

If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn
something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a
conversation and learn something about my experiences.


I'm not interested in the experiences of a liar and troll.

But no, you'd
rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's
that.


When you are so far wide of reality you get dismissed.

You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon
yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my
argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on
usenet."


Please feel free to come back when you are prepared to tell the truth.

--
Bob.

I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.
  #147  
Old March 1st 04, 11:38 PM
Bob Brenchley.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:24:50 +0000, Jacqueline
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:16:03 +0000, Bob Brenchley.
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:03:45 +0000, Jacqueline
wrote:

In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the
hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in.

*sigh* I'm not digging anything. For the millionth time, I can offer
you evidence of my experience - you choose to ignore it. That's not my
fault.

I ignore it because I trust my own experience, and those of EVERY
single person I've come across who has ever worked with cats in the
UK,


Then you're only seeing what you want to see. I've owned cats, I've
worked with cats, I've had umpteen years of experience with a
particular branch of a national UK charity - and my experience differs
from yours.


No, but your lying and trolling does.

If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn
something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a
conversation and learn something about my experiences.


I'm not interested in the experiences of a liar and troll.

But no, you'd
rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's
that.


When you are so far wide of reality you get dismissed.

You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon
yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my
argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on
usenet."


Please feel free to come back when you are prepared to tell the truth.

--
Bob.

I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.
  #148  
Old March 2nd 04, 12:00 AM
Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quoth Bob Brenchley.:
You've refused all offers of documentary evidence. If you're going to
claim there's nothing to see, it's more believable if you have your
eyes open at the time.


There is no evidence to see.


She says there is, and she's happy to produce it.

(a) she may have a mansion, in which case the floor space indoors is
probably larger than most cats will have access to outdoors.


Irrelevant, it is still indoors.


Not irrelevant at all. The issue for cats is space and interest - cats
need territory of a certain size, for prowling in, and need enough of
interest going on in this territory. The territory varies from cat
to cat; for a spayed male it tends to be quite small. They also need a
degree of security in it, and enough going on in it to capture their
interest. Indoors or outdoors is a quite artificial distinction, once
the space requirement is satisfied.

(b) her local office may differ from the norm in policy.


No, policy is set higher up.


Policies set higher up are usually flexible on the ground. This applies
to all organisations; I can't see why the CPL would be any different.

If they have been kept in all there lives they would go to someone
experience in handling such cases. Someone like me. It can take months
to build an older cat's confidence in the outside world, but the
results are so rewarding I'm happy to spend whatever time is needed.


I'm sorry, Bob, but from the evidence you have put forward and the
personality traits you have exhibited on this newsgroup, I doubt you're
either flexible or sympathetic enough to be capable of doing what you
claim here.

And then I read the next clause...

(e) the cats consistently refused to leave the house, so she gave up
trying to persuade them.


That would be a sign of mental illness that needs treating. See above.


Bob, you do realise that you've just said that there's something wrong
with a cat that won't do what you think cats should do, don't you?
Attempting to impose your dogma on what a cat should do on a newsgroup
is one thing. Attempting to impose it on a cat is something else. I'm
familiar with psychological abuse from my own life - and your attitude
to cats, as stated above, is psychologically abusive.

You may be short of imagination, Bob, but don't try and project it
onto us as absolute truth. You're not in possession of that, and
neither is anyone else.


You have a very vivid imagination, but not one that fits very well
with the real world.


Rich, coming from someone who doesn't permit the existence of an
experience different from his own.

...and as far as I can see, that constitutes the majority the
newsgroup. Ever wonder about that, Bob? Ever stop to think that just
perhaps a newsgroup does not find itself populated almost exclusively
by lying trolls - especially not lying trolls who seem perfectly
capable of getting on with everyone else in the newsgroup and not
insisting that their opinions are fact - until you, the vessel of
ultimate revelation, arrives to set it to rights? Ever considered
that just perhaps it might be you that's in the wrong?


You will find that there are a lot of other cat lovers out there, and
most of them will confirm all that I've said.


I have known a lot of other cat lovers. All of them are devoted to their
felines. None of them would ever abuse an animal, or tolerate such
abuse. The majority of them let their cats out; a couple don't.

[.sig quote]
I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.


*sigh* Is there any signature in your collection that is not
crafted to convey your utter belief in your own intellectual superiority
to just about everyone else you ever come into contact with?

If you must disagree with people, fine, do so. People are different.
But stop being so damned RUDE about it.
--
Gwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject)

some girls wander by themselves
  #149  
Old March 2nd 04, 12:00 AM
Gwenhwyfaer de Tierveil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quoth Bob Brenchley.:
You've refused all offers of documentary evidence. If you're going to
claim there's nothing to see, it's more believable if you have your
eyes open at the time.


There is no evidence to see.


She says there is, and she's happy to produce it.

(a) she may have a mansion, in which case the floor space indoors is
probably larger than most cats will have access to outdoors.


Irrelevant, it is still indoors.


Not irrelevant at all. The issue for cats is space and interest - cats
need territory of a certain size, for prowling in, and need enough of
interest going on in this territory. The territory varies from cat
to cat; for a spayed male it tends to be quite small. They also need a
degree of security in it, and enough going on in it to capture their
interest. Indoors or outdoors is a quite artificial distinction, once
the space requirement is satisfied.

(b) her local office may differ from the norm in policy.


No, policy is set higher up.


Policies set higher up are usually flexible on the ground. This applies
to all organisations; I can't see why the CPL would be any different.

If they have been kept in all there lives they would go to someone
experience in handling such cases. Someone like me. It can take months
to build an older cat's confidence in the outside world, but the
results are so rewarding I'm happy to spend whatever time is needed.


I'm sorry, Bob, but from the evidence you have put forward and the
personality traits you have exhibited on this newsgroup, I doubt you're
either flexible or sympathetic enough to be capable of doing what you
claim here.

And then I read the next clause...

(e) the cats consistently refused to leave the house, so she gave up
trying to persuade them.


That would be a sign of mental illness that needs treating. See above.


Bob, you do realise that you've just said that there's something wrong
with a cat that won't do what you think cats should do, don't you?
Attempting to impose your dogma on what a cat should do on a newsgroup
is one thing. Attempting to impose it on a cat is something else. I'm
familiar with psychological abuse from my own life - and your attitude
to cats, as stated above, is psychologically abusive.

You may be short of imagination, Bob, but don't try and project it
onto us as absolute truth. You're not in possession of that, and
neither is anyone else.


You have a very vivid imagination, but not one that fits very well
with the real world.


Rich, coming from someone who doesn't permit the existence of an
experience different from his own.

...and as far as I can see, that constitutes the majority the
newsgroup. Ever wonder about that, Bob? Ever stop to think that just
perhaps a newsgroup does not find itself populated almost exclusively
by lying trolls - especially not lying trolls who seem perfectly
capable of getting on with everyone else in the newsgroup and not
insisting that their opinions are fact - until you, the vessel of
ultimate revelation, arrives to set it to rights? Ever considered
that just perhaps it might be you that's in the wrong?


You will find that there are a lot of other cat lovers out there, and
most of them will confirm all that I've said.


I have known a lot of other cat lovers. All of them are devoted to their
felines. None of them would ever abuse an animal, or tolerate such
abuse. The majority of them let their cats out; a couple don't.

[.sig quote]
I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in
public.


*sigh* Is there any signature in your collection that is not
crafted to convey your utter belief in your own intellectual superiority
to just about everyone else you ever come into contact with?

If you must disagree with people, fine, do so. People are different.
But stop being so damned RUDE about it.
--
Gwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject)

some girls wander by themselves
  #150  
Old March 2nd 04, 01:08 AM
Jacqueline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:38:40 +0000, Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn
something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a
conversation and learn something about my experiences.


I'm not interested in the experiences of a liar and troll.


But I am neither so my opinion and experiences are valid.

But no, you'd
rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's
that.


When you are so far wide of reality you get dismissed.


Well, so it seems in your case, nobody's taking you seriously.

You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon
yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my
argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on
usenet."


Please feel free to come back when you are prepared to tell the truth.


What you mean is, "please feel free to come back when you agree with
everything I say". You really are bizarre.
 




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