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#11
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"Cheryl" wrote in message ... Wasn't it? I don't mean to stereotype, but I often find Asians are more well-versed in the English language than some of us who only have the one language. (forgive me, Rona, if Asian isn't your ethnicity). You're right--partially :-). I am ethnically Asian (half Thai, half Filipino) though I grew up in Canada and English is my first language. I would agree that Asians can be more well-versed in the English language (especially grammatically and in terms of vocabulary) though I would probably refine it--it's the South-East Asians of privileged classes who really know their stuff (though educated people from India are also very adept). My parents were both very well-educated in their respective countries and their knowledge of the English language puts even the English of well-educated Americans to shame. It's all about the educational system, I think. ObCats: I like mine. She has some strange yet endearing behaviours. I took her for a walk tonight and she kept chasing her leash. She was very excited to go down to the end of the driveway, though. It was like new territory for her. rona Stranger Cat and Miss Kitty http://community.webshots.com/album/85325277afVZIl |
#12
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David Yehudah wrote:
You're right, Joyce. In today's PC world using the correct term can be confusing. As an American educated back in the pre-PC era, 1950's or so, I grew up with 'he' as the gender neutral and am quite content with it. It's not about "PC", it's about making people aware of how language subtly affects the way people think. If a word conjures up images of men in situations where either gender could be referred to, then people aren't going to think about women in those situations. Remember in "1984" when the government didn't want people to think about certain concepts, they simply eliminated the word from the language? Humans are a language-oriented species, it's a big part of what defines us as a species. People who grow up without learning language (eg, deaf people who weren't taught how to speak, read lips, or use sign language) are often intellectually stunted later in life and have trouble understanding abstract concepts. If they don't have the words, they can't conceive of the ideas. I tend to be a bit suspicious of that use of the phrase "PC", anyway. To me, it always sounds like someone's saying, "I don't care about your issues, I'm happy with the status quo, and I don't want to bother trying to change." Granted, some people are phony about the way they use "correct" terminology, because it's expected (in corporate environments, the government, etc) or they want to make the right impression, or appease people, etc. But that doesn't mean the original impulse behind the issue is stupid or phony. it doesn't strike me as being deliberately unfair. Notice I say deliberately; it strikes me as being the result of common usage rather than some evil plot to disenfranchise women. No, language usage isn't deliberate, but I don't think that matters. Cancer isn't deliberate either, but we try to get rid of it because it's harmful. To me it's a non issue OK, how about we start using "she" as the generic pronoun for a while? Just for the hell of it. Since it's a non-issue, no one should mind that! It's a Cause; people pay it lip service to show they are Aware. I agree - as I said before, there are a lot of people who pay lip service because they're expected to, or they want to win brownie points, or they'll get in trouble otherwise, etc. But just because some people are full of BS doesn't mean the idea itself is BS. For example, the sentence, "If a student comes to class late, he'll just have to take whatever seat is available," becomes "Any student who come in late will have to take whatever seat is available." It's a grammatically correct usage without offending anyone, except maybe late arrivals. :-) That's an elegant way to do it, yes. Also you could cast it in the plural: "Students who come in late will have to..." (Now that late arrival thing - I might have a problem with that, as I haven't been on time for anything since 1954, when I was born prematurely. It's been downhill ever since!) I sometimes think it's unfair the way people pick on English for this usage, when most foreign languages are even worse. Actually, I've seen changes in some Spanish constructions, such as references to Spanish-speaking people as "Latinos/as", etc. Maybe we just see English being picked on because we live in a mostly English- speaking country? For example, in Spanish the correct third person plural for a group of women is 'ellas.' But if even one man intrudes on two million females, then the correct term is 'ellos,' the masculine form, even though there may be only one of him. Yeah, I remember my first Spanish teacher talking about that. I guess we're lucky because English is more gender-neutral than many languages, such as the romance languages. I still think we need that neutral generic 3rd person pronoun, though... Joyce |
#13
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Marina wrote:
would rather live in the past...), and I think it's time for language to change with it. You tell them girl! -- Victor M. Martinez http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv |
#14
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#15
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David Yehudah wrote:
I never heard of this problem until the feminists launched their gender neutral language attack in the late 60's - early 70's. Remember 'manhole cover' becoming 'personhole cover?' OK, so some people went overboard. That doesn't detract from the basic issue in my book. You mean the only time in your life you were early for something traumatized you so much you've never done it again? :-) Something like that, yeah! These days I'm on a schedule of going to bed around 5 AM and getting up at 1 PM. I'm starting breakfast when normal people are digesting lunch. 1954 was avery good year; that's when Patty was born. Oh, she's my age? I thought you guys were much older. Were you born around the same time, or is this a May-December thing? She was also a preemie. Her parents had only been married about 7 months at the time, but she weighed a full 8 pounds. Yeah, getting married late, after the pregnancy is under way can really screw up fetal development! Joyce |
#16
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#17
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"Yowie" wrote in message
... "Marina" wrote in message ... wrote No, language usage isn't deliberate, but I don't think that matters. I agree with you, Joyce. Language developes to reflect the realities around the speakers of that language. Thus, the 'neutral' use of he reflects how the male has been perceived as the norm, while the female was considered a deviance from the norm. As to romance languages, it's no surprise to me that that usage is even stronger there, given the machismo cultures that have been prevalent in Spain and Italy (probably France, too). But the world has changed a lot since these usages were adopted (except for some people, who would rather live in the past...), and I think it's time for language to change with it. Reminds me of the old brain teaser tat foes something like: A young boy is in an horrific accident and rushed to the hospital. The head doctor rushes out to meet the ambulance but on seeing the patient, gasps in horror, "I can't treat this patient, he is my son". Later, when questioned, the doctor denies being the boy's father. How could this be? The answer is obvious, yet many people have to think for quite some time about what the solution is. Until the solution is sodding obvious to everyone, innate sexism is alive and well. Yowie (and yes, I had to think about it the first time I heard it, I'm not immune either) I'm not sure anybody is immune. When I was flying (I'm a retired private pilot), I always assumed the pilot of any other plane was male, unless I knew otherwise. How dumb is that? Joy |
#18
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Hey. Hey! HEY! I just sound like an old fart. :-) I'm 12 years older
than Patty, which I guess is an improvement over her first husband who was 24 years older than she. wrote: Oh, she's my age? I thought you guys were much older. Were you born around the same time, or is this a May-December thing? |
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