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Questions for cat experts
Newbie wrote:
Again, for humans we would consider a paste-like diet to be terrible. You want fiber, and stool, for overall health. What is best for cats? Would it not be better for them to have pieces of meat to chew on, rather than paste to lick? That's one of the reasons I feed my cats a homemade raw diet. They get all their nutritional requirements including exercise for their teeth and jaw. Lauren See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe |
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"Dr.Carla,DVM" wrote in message news:AMmBe.151052$x96.136860@attbi_s72... 1. How many meals per day? Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may depend on the cat. I have 2 cats that will regulate themselves very well, but I have 1 cat that will eat everything in sight as soon as he sees it and then puke it up later. Depends on your schedule too. The amount is more important whether the cat regulates himself or needs 5 pieces at a time a 100 times a day (like my cat). 2. Best feeding times? 1 big meal is not ideal. I prefer to have you start out putting out 1/2 her/his food in the a.m. and see how well he regulates himself, then the other 1/2 in the late afternoon/early eve. 3. Dry/canned? Dry is better for teeth, true. Canned is not superior, it depends on the kinds of proteins in the meal, not whether or not the meal has been watered down (which is what canned is). Dry makes for less smelly feces in the litter box too. I use only dry and give canned as a treat or when I need to give medications that I can crush up in the food. Dry foods have a higher calorie density (more cals/oz) although canned is more palatable (generally tastes better). 4. What to look for in labels?/6. short list of premium brands Awesome question!! Generally cheaper pet foods have more undigestable proteins so even though the label may look comparable (calories, proteins etc.) check to see how much of the food the cat needs to satisfy their daily requirements. Hills, Iams, (the more expensive ones) Purina (reasonably priced) are all awesome foods. I stay away from any brand you don't recognize, just because if you check the label the cat probably needs a lot more of that food (because of the undigestable proteins) than the one that costs a little more. Also if you add it up...(# cups needed and price per cup) they usually come out even or really close to it. Never put your cat on a vegetarian diet unless you know the exact nutrient requirements and can fufill them daily. Vege diets while fine for people can kill a cat. Also don't put your cat on an all tuna diet, that also leads to big trouble due to the lack of necessary nutrients. 5. One worry about "premium" cans: All of the so called premium (read expensive) cans I have seen appear to contain food that looks like paste. Cats are that particular about what the food looks like as long as it fits in their mouth and they can chew and swallow it. The more the food stinks (to you) the more they seem to like it. Your cat may turn out to be finicky, so you may have to try a few diets. Generally once you find a diet stick to it, because they do have the tendency to have pancreatitis (vomiting, diarrhea, won't eat) when their food is changed often. Oh and FYI, cats vomit. It happens, a lot. If your cat vomits without a hairball for a couple days in a row though, talk to your vet. Good luck Thanks for your informative post, Carla. It is nice to see a vet posting in these groups. |
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Dr.Carla,DVM wrote:
3. Dry/canned? Dry makes for less smelly feces in the litter box too. I have never found this to be true. In fact, I have found that the feces from dry food are more voluninous as well as smelly. As to dry verus canned, I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting. Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done: http://tinyurl.com/7syh7 Here is Dr. Zoran's article: http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf I think overall a canned diet is healthier for cats. LAUREN See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe |
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Phil P. wrote: (...) Canned food is actually concentrated nutrition- that's why cats need to eat *less* dry matter volume of canned food than dry to derive *more* nutrition. Simultaneously, the cat will need to eat a larger volume of canned than dry to get a given intake of kcal, and this can help promote satiety. Can be important, esp. in relation to the high incidence of obseity in pet cats. (...) That's not entirely accurate, either. Since dry food is generally less digestible than an equal-quality canned food, the feces tend to be more smelly and voluminous. The less digestible a food the greater the quantity of feces produced. I haven't made a study of ****-stinkiness (though it's right up there on my to-o list), but I suppose a dry diet might lead to less odour if the **** were less well hydrated - which will be the case. (...) Dry foods have a higher calorie density (more cals/oz) That's also not accurate. Canned food contains more protein and fat and kcals on a dry matter basis than dry foods. That's why cats need to eat less quantity of canned food than dry. See above. Well, that's not entirely accurate, either...! Dry food has a higher calorie density, as fed (but generally lower density on a dry matter basis). Calorie density as fed is important in this case because stomach distention / volume eaten is a factor in the cat reaching satiety. For example, some research indicates that stomach distention plays a role in one satiety mechanism (cholecystokinin - CCK - mediated satiety). Certainly one reason why cats fed dry food have a higher incidence of obseity is that the higher calorie density of dry food (as fed) lead to lesser stomach-distention mediated satiety cues. Steve. |
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"Steve G" wrote in message oups.com... Phil P. wrote: (...) Canned food is actually concentrated nutrition- that's why cats need to eat *less* dry matter volume of canned food than dry to derive *more* nutrition. Simultaneously, the cat will need to eat a larger volume of canned than dry to get a given intake of kcal, I don't think so. In a 3 oz can of cat food, all the nutrients, including energy (kcals) are contained in only .66 oz of dry matter- the rest is moisture. A cat needs to eat at least 1/4 cup of dry food to derive the same or less nutrition. Only 10% of that volume is moisture- thus the cat needs to eat more dry matter of dry food (3.6 oz) than canned (.66 oz) to derive the same or less nutrition. Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats less food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and canned food is sold in little cans. and this can help promote satiety. Can be important, esp. in relation to the high incidence of obseity in pet cats. (...) That's not entirely accurate, either. Since dry food is generally less digestible than an equal-quality canned food, the feces tend to be more smelly and voluminous. The less digestible a food the greater the quantity of feces produced. I haven't made a study of ****-stinkiness (though it's right up there on my to-o list), but I suppose a dry diet might lead to less odour if the **** were less well hydrated - which will be the case. I don't think so. More water is lost to fecal moisture with dry food than canned. The lower the food's digestibility, the more the cat must eat to meet her caloric needs, and the greater the quantity of feces produced. The greater the quantity of feces, the larger the percentage of water retained in the intestinal tract and excreted in the feces. That's why dry fed cats have lower urine volumes even though they drink more than 6x more water than canned-fed cats. Digestibility also affects fecal odor. The fact that dry food is less digestible than equal-quality canned food also contributes to fecal odor. (...) Dry foods have a higher calorie density (more cals/oz) That's also not accurate. Canned food contains more protein and fat and kcals on a dry matter basis than dry foods. That's why cats need to eat less quantity of canned food than dry. See above. Well, that's not entirely accurate, either...! Dry food has a higher calorie density, as fed (but generally lower density on a dry matter basis). Calorie density as fed is important in this case because stomach distention / volume eaten is a factor in the cat reaching satiety. For example, some research indicates that stomach distention plays a role in one satiety mechanism (cholecystokinin - CCK - mediated satiety). Cats eat to meet their energy needs- humans eat to reach satiety. When their energy needs are met cats stop eating- unless satiety cues are overridden by exceptionally palatable diets or behavioral factors. Cats need to eat a greater volume of dry food than canned to derive the same or less nutrition. Certainly one reason why cats fed dry food have a higher incidence of obseity is that the higher calorie density of dry food (as fed) lead to lesser stomach-distention mediated satiety cues. Dry-fed cats are prone to obesity due to the higher carbohydrate content of dry food. |
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In ,
Mary stated unanimously: "Dr.Carla,DVM" wrote in message news:AMmBe.151052$x96.136860@attbi_s72... 1. How many meals per day? Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may depend on the cat. I have 2 cats that will regulate themselves very well, but I have 1 cat that will eat everything in sight as soon as he sees it and then puke it up later. Depends on your schedule too. The amount is more important whether the cat regulates himself or needs 5 pieces at a time a 100 times a day (like my cat). 2. Best feeding times? 1 big meal is not ideal. I prefer to have you start out putting out 1/2 her/his food in the a.m. and see how well he regulates himself, then the other 1/2 in the late afternoon/early eve. 3. Dry/canned? Dry is better for teeth, true. Canned is not superior, it depends on the kinds of proteins in the meal, not whether or not the meal has been watered down (which is what canned is). Dry makes for less smelly feces in the litter box too. I use only dry and give canned as a treat or when I need to give medications that I can crush up in the food. Dry foods have a higher calorie density (more cals/oz) although canned is more palatable (generally tastes better). 4. What to look for in labels?/6. short list of premium brands Awesome question!! Generally cheaper pet foods have more undigestable proteins so even though the label may look comparable (calories, proteins etc.) check to see how much of the food the cat needs to satisfy their daily requirements. Hills, Iams, (the more expensive ones) Purina (reasonably priced) are all awesome foods. I stay away from any brand you don't recognize, just because if you check the label the cat probably needs a lot more of that food (because of the undigestable proteins) than the one that costs a little more. Also if you add it up...(# cups needed and price per cup) they usually come out even or really close to it. Never put your cat on a vegetarian diet unless you know the exact nutrient requirements and can fufill them daily. Vege diets while fine for people can kill a cat. Also don't put your cat on an all tuna diet, that also leads to big trouble due to the lack of necessary nutrients. 5. One worry about "premium" cans: All of the so called premium (read expensive) cans I have seen appear to contain food that looks like paste. Cats are that particular about what the food looks like as long as it fits in their mouth and they can chew and swallow it. The more the food stinks (to you) the more they seem to like it. Your cat may turn out to be finicky, so you may have to try a few diets. Generally once you find a diet stick to it, because they do have the tendency to have pancreatitis (vomiting, diarrhea, won't eat) when their food is changed often. Oh and FYI, cats vomit. It happens, a lot. If your cat vomits without a hairball for a couple days in a row though, talk to your vet. Good luck Thanks for your informative post, Carla. It is nice to see a vet posting in these groups. Wonder how long it will be until you find cause to rip her to shreads. Couple of weeks, tops? |
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Dr.Carla,DVM wrote:
1. How many meals per day? Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may depend on the cat. Can you please tell us why "free feeding" a cat is best, including any studies that show it's beneficial to cats and how an obligate carnivore would especially benefit from eating free fed kibble? |
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PawsForThought wrote:
Dr.Carla,DVM wrote: 1. How many meals per day? Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may depend on the cat. Can you please tell us why "free feeding" a cat is best, including any studies that show it's beneficial to cats and how an obligate carnivore would especially benefit from eating free fed kibble? kibble does include animal products; it isn't really analgous to human "breakfast cereal". YMMV depending on the brand/product. As I've posted, the "kibble" part of their diet should be a brand that they'll eat when hungry but not when bored (sortof like leaving celery sticks out for the kids as opposed to chocolate chip cookies). pat |
#9
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"rpl" wrote in message ... PawsForThought wrote: Dr.Carla,DVM wrote: 1. How many meals per day? Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may depend on the cat. Can you please tell us why "free feeding" a cat is best, including any studies that show it's beneficial to cats and how an obligate carnivore would especially benefit from eating free fed kibble? kibble does include animal products; it isn't really analgous to human "breakfast cereal". YMMV depending on the brand/product. Cats are carnivores. Humans are omnivores. So, yes, you're right, it is not equivalent to human breakfast cereal in that the latter actually meets some of our nutrition needs, whereas the corn meal and other starchy fillers in dry food meet none of the cat's needs. As I've posted, the "kibble" part of their diet should be a brand that they'll eat when hungry but not when bored (sortof like leaving celery sticks out for the kids as opposed to chocolate chip cookies). This works well for one of my cats, as she stays skinny and is allergic to many foods--but not the one brand of dry I use and the one brand of canned. However, recommending free-feeding of dry to every cat is not a good idea. First, they may learn to eat when bored; and second, canned food is just much better for them due to the water content and the nutrients. Convenience is the only reason many people feed dry food, and it may be the best reason. And not a very good one at that. |
#10
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Phil P. wrote: "Steve G" wrote in message oups.com... (...) I don't think so. In a 3 oz can of cat food, all the nutrients, including energy (kcals) are contained in only .66 oz of dry matter- Yes, but when considering stomach-distention related satiety mechanisms, it's *not* the dry matter comparison that's the one of interest: it's the volume as fed. Simply put, for a fixed calorie intake a cat will need to eat more wet than dry food (inclusive of water content) and this will lead to more immediate stomach distention. Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats less food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and canned food is sold in little cans. Well, dry food is sold in large bags because it's more convenient to do so, for manufacturer and pet owner - owner just needs to go to the pet shop once every n-months for dry food. Not possible to practically produce huge bags of wet food! It's a funny comparison you've made there, really: A bag of dry food lasts months, the same weight (as fed) of wet food lasts a far shorter amount of time. Or, if you filled a can of cat food with dry kibble, the cat of dry would contain more energy (as fed) than the same can filled with wet food. Thus one reason why owners like dry food - it's very convenient. (...) I don't think so. More water is lost to fecal moisture with dry food than canned. Yes, but does **** from dry actually reach the same level of hydration as **** from canned? Certainly dry will extract water from the intestine to a greater degree than canned, but I'm not sure than the dry **** is as wet as the wet **** IYSWIM. (Is there a paper on ****-hydration, canned vs. dry? Now there's esoteria.) (...) Cats eat to meet their energy needs- humans eat to reach satiety. The conventional meaning of 'satiety' in the nutrition literature is (re. OED) 'satisfaction of a need (esp. hunger) as it is registered physiologically'. In the literature *all* animals eat in order to 'reach satiety', where satiety refers to whatever mechanisms are at work in the animal that lead to it stopping eating (e.g., energy intake, stomach distention, amino-acid receptors in intestine, mouthfeel / salivation, etc.). Satiety in animals can only be inferred (i.e., they stop eating), but humans can be queried as to their desire to continue eating. In the cat, there is some research on stomach-distention mediated satiety. Receptors that respond to stomach distention project to the hypothalamus of the cat (Jeannigros & Mei, 1980, Brain Res 185: 239-251) and the hypothalamus is implicated in much homestasis, including feeding. Indeed, some authors have termed the ventromedial hypothalamus the 'satiety centre' of the brain. Schick et al. (1989; Am J Physiol 256: R248-254) found that a cholecystokinin like subtance (CCK-LI) increased in the hypothalamus of the cat in response to a meal, *or* a gastric load with no nutritional value. As the authors note in their asbtract: 'CCK supresses food intake in various species, and has therefore been proposed to act as a satiety factor' But it's complex: there are intestinal receptors that response to fats, amino acids, and so on. Satiety is reached by some (unknown) combination of responses from many mechanisms. When their energy needs are met cats stop eating- unless satiety cues are overridden by exceptionally palatable diets or behavioral factors. c.40% of US pet cats are overweight. In the practicalities of everyday life, cats are not 'calorie counters'. In fact, cats are far less the archetypal calorie counters than rats. Cats need to eat a greater volume of dry food than canned to derive the same or less nutrition. Again, not as fed - and when considering stomach-distention satiety, the volume of food entering the stomach is the important thing. (...) Dry-fed cats are prone to obesity due to the higher carbohydrate content of dry food. Another possible component for sure (e.g., related to amino acid based satiety? Jeannigros, 1983, Brain res Bull 10: 15-21), although a study just out failed to find any relationship between the relative carb content in a diet and weight loss (Michel et al.,2005; J Fel Med Surg, in press): "In conclusion, body condition and energy intake but not type of diet influenced weight loss in this cohort of group-housed cats. Future studies to investigate whether dietary carbohydrate intake affects food intake and feeding behavior including satiety are warranted. " In the above, 'type of diet' refers to either a relatively low-carb (dry) diet or a conventional dry diet. However, the study is - IMO - pretty wobbly on a few design grounds, so that I wouldn't be sure that low and high carb diets are necessarily equally efficacious wrt weight loss. Steve. |
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