Crane, Gaubster, PhilP

In ,
GAUBSTER2 composed with style:

They ramble on about calcium, phosphorus,
nutrients in the food, all of which can be sourced from garbage,
and
then we are told we should be more concerned about kidney disease
etc.

Well, shouldn't we be? Kidney disease is a MAJOR problem in cats,
and yet you act as if you can't be bothered w/ it?

It seems to me that those low phosphorus levels aren't coming from
foods with meat as the main protein source.

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
"Ann Martin" wrote in message

All these people

Since your post is entitled: " Crane, Gaubster, PhilP", "All these
people" include me.

have stated that this industry is regulated.

Another example of your misrepresentation of other people's statements. I
did not say the industry was regulated. Cite the post wherein I said the
industry was regulated, otherwise, I'm publicly calling you a *LIAR*.

....and you wonder why people think you're a flim flam artist trying to
hustle books by playing on other peoples' fear...


ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD.

To once again clarify your manipulation of my statement, I did not say the
ingredients definitions were different between the two types of food, I said
ingredients used in feed for livestock were not used in cat food.


Regarding your pentobarbital scare tactic, *your* own source did not imply
or suggest the drug - obviously in the trace amounts found - posed any
danger. In fact, your own source said:

"The conclusion arrived at (by the FDA/CVM) was this drug was "probably"
safe."

No danger was found. Therefore, the pentobarbital scare was *your*
*fabrication* and you're even continuing to perpetuate the scare tactic and
rumor! You're lucky you're not inconvenienced by morals and conscience!

I and others are *still* waiting for you to produce a *single* documented
case of pentobarbital toxicity in the *hundreds of millions* of cats that
have been eating commercial cat food for *generations* -- who are in fact,
living longer today than they have in the past.

I'd say your credibility isn't looking too good -- In fact I'd say its shot!

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
"Ann Martin" wrote in message

All these people

Since your post is entitled: " Crane, Gaubster, PhilP", "All these
people" include me.

have stated that this industry is regulated.

Another example of your misrepresentation of other people's statements. I
did not say the industry was regulated. Cite the post wherein I said the
industry was regulated, otherwise, I'm publicly calling you a *LIAR*.

....and you wonder why people think you're a flim flam artist trying to
hustle books by playing on other peoples' fear...


ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD.

To once again clarify your manipulation of my statement, I did not say the
ingredients definitions were different between the two types of food, I said
ingredients used in feed for livestock were not used in cat food.


Regarding your pentobarbital scare tactic, *your* own source did not imply
or suggest the drug - obviously in the trace amounts found - posed any
danger. In fact, your own source said:

"The conclusion arrived at (by the FDA/CVM) was this drug was "probably"
safe."

No danger was found. Therefore, the pentobarbital scare was *your*
*fabrication* and you're even continuing to perpetuate the scare tactic and
rumor! You're lucky you're not inconvenienced by morals and conscience!

I and others are *still* waiting for you to produce a *single* documented
case of pentobarbital toxicity in the *hundreds of millions* of cats that
have been eating commercial cat food for *generations* -- who are in fact,
living longer today than they have in the past.

I'd say your credibility isn't looking too good -- In fact I'd say its shot!

(Ann Martin) wrote in message . com...
"Cathy Friedmann" wrote
All these people have stated that this industry is regulated. Where
is the proof? Show me one document that gives any indication that
ingredients in pet foods are regulated. One idiot stated that the
USDA/FSIS regulated the ingredients used in pet foods. WRONG! they
have no input at all. The FDA/CVM oversees any drugs that are used in
pet foods and the labeling text. NOTHING ELSE. The AAFCO sets
guidelines and it is up to each state to adopt these guidlines. Very
few states actually do and if they do this group, comprised of many
from the pet food industry, has no input at all into the ingredients
used. If you follow the AAFCO guidlelines, as I have pointed out in a
previous post, the foods can contain such things as "hydrolyzed hair,"
dehydrated garbage," "dehydrated food waste," "dried ruminant waste,"
"dried swine waste," "undried processed animal waste products,". NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD. THE PET FOOD COMPANIES,
THAT'S WHO REGULATES THIS INDUSTRY.
snipped
As I've said before, I don't have the time to spend with people like
you and won't bother wasting anymore time with your posts. Others on
the list know that I am more then happy to provide any documented
information they require.

Ann

Small, nit-picky correction: this is a news group, not a list.

Thanks Cathy, I'll remember that in the future.

And, it's considered to be impolite to use caps for entire words/sentences
in ngs - it's = shouting.

Cathy, if I were speaking directly to these people I would be shouting
as they can't seem to comprehend anything I have said. There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

Ann

I comprehend everything you said. I just don't buy it. Sure,
commercial foods probably aren't the *best* foods we can feed our
animals, but you know what? Hundreds of thousands (millions?) of
animals do well, and live well into their teens and twenties eating
Friskies, 9-Lives, Wiskas, and all of the other grocery-store and
"premium" brands. My family fed our cats grocery store food for years
- and we never had a cat die earlier than age 15 - and most of these
cats wetre indoor-outrdoor cats who lived somewhat harder lives than
average. That, my dear, is proof enough for me.

The bottom line is, feed your animals the best foods you can afford.
Educate yourself about what ingredients the mfr.'s use, and do the
best you can. That's all any cat can ask of their owner.

-L.

(Ann Martin) wrote in message . com...
"Cathy Friedmann" wrote
All these people have stated that this industry is regulated. Where
is the proof? Show me one document that gives any indication that
ingredients in pet foods are regulated. One idiot stated that the
USDA/FSIS regulated the ingredients used in pet foods. WRONG! they
have no input at all. The FDA/CVM oversees any drugs that are used in
pet foods and the labeling text. NOTHING ELSE. The AAFCO sets
guidelines and it is up to each state to adopt these guidlines. Very
few states actually do and if they do this group, comprised of many
from the pet food industry, has no input at all into the ingredients
used. If you follow the AAFCO guidlelines, as I have pointed out in a
previous post, the foods can contain such things as "hydrolyzed hair,"
dehydrated garbage," "dehydrated food waste," "dried ruminant waste,"
"dried swine waste," "undried processed animal waste products,". NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD. THE PET FOOD COMPANIES,
THAT'S WHO REGULATES THIS INDUSTRY.
snipped
As I've said before, I don't have the time to spend with people like
you and won't bother wasting anymore time with your posts. Others on
the list know that I am more then happy to provide any documented
information they require.

Ann

Small, nit-picky correction: this is a news group, not a list.

Thanks Cathy, I'll remember that in the future.

And, it's considered to be impolite to use caps for entire words/sentences
in ngs - it's = shouting.

Cathy, if I were speaking directly to these people I would be shouting
as they can't seem to comprehend anything I have said. There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

Ann

I comprehend everything you said. I just don't buy it. Sure,
commercial foods probably aren't the *best* foods we can feed our
animals, but you know what? Hundreds of thousands (millions?) of
animals do well, and live well into their teens and twenties eating
Friskies, 9-Lives, Wiskas, and all of the other grocery-store and
"premium" brands. My family fed our cats grocery store food for years
- and we never had a cat die earlier than age 15 - and most of these
cats wetre indoor-outrdoor cats who lived somewhat harder lives than
average. That, my dear, is proof enough for me.

The bottom line is, feed your animals the best foods you can afford.
Educate yourself about what ingredients the mfr.'s use, and do the
best you can. That's all any cat can ask of their owner.

-L.

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:24:24 -0400, "Cheryl"
wrote:

It seems to me that those low phosphorus levels aren't coming from
foods with meat as the main protein source.

Very well observed. I had a phone talk once with a vet working for a
pet food manufacturer and asked him, how they'd arrive at the low phos
for the kidney diets. He said "Well, it would be impossible to reduce
the phos once it's in the food, so we just don't add stuff that we do
add to the normal food."

I suspect that most of the phos is introduced either as inorganic
additive (to improve processing?), or is of plant byproduct origin.

Why would producers (here in Germany) drag their feet to declare phos
content if there wasn't a reason for it they are unwilling to expose?

BTW, when I did my reading about pet food, it appeared to me that
*diet* pet foods in the US are not regulated at all.
Eb

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:24:24 -0400, "Cheryl"
wrote:

It seems to me that those low phosphorus levels aren't coming from
foods with meat as the main protein source.

Very well observed. I had a phone talk once with a vet working for a
pet food manufacturer and asked him, how they'd arrive at the low phos
for the kidney diets. He said "Well, it would be impossible to reduce
the phos once it's in the food, so we just don't add stuff that we do
add to the normal food."

I suspect that most of the phos is introduced either as inorganic
additive (to improve processing?), or is of plant byproduct origin.

Why would producers (here in Germany) drag their feet to declare phos
content if there wasn't a reason for it they are unwilling to expose?

BTW, when I did my reading about pet food, it appeared to me that
*diet* pet foods in the US are not regulated at all.
Eb

From: E. Kunze

On 1 Sep 2003 05:11:46 -0700, (Ann Martin) wrote:

There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

I'd very much regret that. Though I'm not quite sure yet as to how far
I agree with you, I feel that some provocative voices might be
beneficial to all our pets, even if the only effect would be to
encourage more people responsible for pets to acquire more knowledge.

Absolutely! I think it's important for people to learn about what they are
feeding their pets.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

From: E. Kunze

On 1 Sep 2003 05:11:46 -0700, (Ann Martin) wrote:

There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

I'd very much regret that. Though I'm not quite sure yet as to how far
I agree with you, I feel that some provocative voices might be
beneficial to all our pets, even if the only effect would be to
encourage more people responsible for pets to acquire more knowledge.

Absolutely! I think it's important for people to learn about what they are
feeding their pets.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

From: "Cheryl"

GAUBSTER2 composed with style:

They ramble on about calcium, phosphorus,
nutrients in the food, all of which can be sourced from garbage,
and
then we are told we should be more concerned about kidney disease
etc.

Well, shouldn't we be? Kidney disease is a MAJOR problem in cats,
and yet you act as if you can't be bothered w/ it?

It seems to me that those low phosphorus levels aren't coming from
foods with meat as the main protein source.

I recently read a study that said kidney disease in cats may actually be
related to vaccines. Of course more studies are needed, but it sure makes you
think what it is that really causes CRF:

PARENTERAL ADMINISTRATION OF FVRCP VACCINES
INDUCES ANTIBODIES AGAINST FELINE RENAL TISSUES.

MR Lappin, WA Jensen, R Chandrashekar, and SD Kinney. From
the Department of Clinical Sciences (Lappin), Colorado State
University, Fort Collins, CO and the Heska Corporation, Fort Collins
CO (Jensen, Chandrashekar, and Kinney).

Chronic renal failure is a common cause of death in cats.
Lymphocytic/plasmacytic interstitial nephritis is common
histopathologically,
suggesting immune-mediated reactions may play a role. Feline
herpesvirus 1,
calicivirus, and panleukopenia virus for use in feline vaccines (FVRCP)
are
commonly grown in Crandall-Reese Feline Kidney (CRFK) cells. As a
consequence, commercially available FVRCP vaccines contain CRFK
proteins.
The objectives of this study were to determine whether cats inoculated
with
FVRCP vaccines develop antibodies against CRFK cell extracts and if so,
to
determine if these antibodies reacted with extracts of feline renal
tissue (FRT).

Fourteen age-matched, mixed-sex, unvaccinated kittens were divided
into seven
pairs. To each pair of kittens, one of the following was administered:
10µg of
CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein plus an
aluminum adjuvant SQ; a FVRCP vaccine for intranasal administration, or
one of
three FVRCP vaccines for SQ administration. The concentration of CRFK
protein
used was comparable to the range detected in the vaccines. Kittens
receiving
CRFK proteins were inoculated every two to four weeks for a total of
eight times
during the study period and kittens receiving vaccines were inoculated
every three
weeks for three inoculations. Serum samples were collected prior to
inoculation
and six months later. ELISAs to detect feline antibodies that bind to
CRFK cell
extracts or FRT extracts were optimized. All sera were assayed in both
ELISAs
and absorbance values calculated. An individual cat was considered
positive for
antibodies against either CRFK cell extracts or FRT extracts if the mean
absorbance value of duplicate post-inoculation wells was greater than
the mean
plus three standard deviations of the 14 pre-inoculation sample
absorbance values.

None of the cats was positive for antibodies against CRFK or FRT
extracts prior
to inoculation. All six kittens inoculated with CRFK proteins were
positive for
anti-CRFK antibodies in the post-inoculation sample; five of these six
kittens were
positive for anti-FRT antibodies. Neither cat inoculated with the
intranasal FVRCP
vaccine was positive for anti-CRFK or anti-FRT antibodies
post-inoculation. Of
the cats inoculated with FVRCP vaccines SQ, five of six and four of six
were
positive for anti-CRFK antibodies or anti-FRT antibodies in the
post-inoculation
sample, respectively.

Administration of FVRCP vaccines SQ to cats can induce antibody
responses to
CRFK proteins and feline renal tissues. Further research will be needed
to define
the role of these autoantibodies in the development of chronic renal
failure in cats.

Lauren

________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm