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#1
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"Tutorial" guidance required for reading cat food labels - please help, anyone
i need a "tutorial" in reading labels. I'm trying to put together all
the information i've gotten from reading the back-and-forths about nutrition and petfood in this newsgroup and i don't think i understand very much. i really want to do the best thing for my cat. could someone help me apply what i've read in a reading label exercise? 1) my question is: what are excessive levels of nutrients? a lot of talk about excessive levels of nutrients and insufficient ratios harming cats. help me: if i buy, what levels should i look for on labels, then? If i'm preparing homemade, how much ? - magnesium: not more than how much % is acceptable? - calcium: not more than how much % is acceptable? - phosphorous: not more than how much % is acceptable? - ash : not more than how much % ? should i be looking out for ratios, percentages or quantities ? i know about calcium: phosphorous having to be 1.2: 1.2.1 (correct?) , but WHAT happens if it's 1: 1.2 or .79: 1.2? how bad is it? for example, right now I am feeding a combination of Back to Basics dry food and Prota Cat Steak and Kidney. Both these foods have calcium-phosphorous ratios that are not 1.2: 1.2.1 but are sort of close. Should I supplement? Here is the label reading for Back to Basics Back to Basics (from packet labelling - the packet labelling is a bit different from their web site labelling) Crude Protein not less than 34.00% Crude Fat not less than 21.00% Crude Fiber not less than 3.50% Moisture not more than 10.00% Ash not more than 5.6% Calcium not more than 1.1% Phosphorous not more than 1.0% Magnesium not more than 0.095% (is this high?) Copper = 33.06mg/kg In addition i have these questions: First, does this mean that the carb count for BtoB is 25.9% ? (100-34-21-3.5-10-6.5=25.9) According to the comparison that has been going on, this is sort of OK for a dry food in terms of grain content? It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a dry food without at least 20-30% grain content, right? Second, it says about ash here on the Back to Basics maker's web site: (http://www.beowulfs.com/natural_cat_food.shtml): ASH When meat is cooked, ash is produced. The ash content in cat food is proportional to the amount of meat in the food. In other words, the higher the meat content, the higher the ash. However high quality meat produces less ash than low quality meat. Back to Basics uses only the highest quality meats available and, therefore, has the least ash content possible which is approximately 6 1/2%. (The only way to get lower ash content is to supplement cheap vegetable proteins) So is this true? This ash - if I were to cook my own meat, is ash produced or is it only produced by commercial machines or something? Am I supposed to be able to see this ash? If I'm going to feed raw (like the Prota Cat), there's NO ash becuase it's not cooked, then? My colleague was showing me a NZ brand of catfood (some kind of semi wet food )she had just bought called Nature's Gift (I think) and i happened to see it had 12% ash - isn't that TOO HIGH? (according to the back to basics web site description that's very high). Third, the phosphorous content for B2B, it's OK but on the high side? I also feed Prota Pak Catfood (chilled). The calcium is 1% and the phosphorous is 1.2%. Is this not acceptable?? To supplement that should be trying to put the balance back by putting in .1% of calcium? (and how would i do this) 2) Taurine My (insufficient) reading tells me that meat itself is a source of taurine. Therefore if I'm feeding a raw food diet (like porta pak catfood), is that enough taurine, or do i need to add by-products (hearts or liver for taurine?)? What is the minimum mg or % of taurine I should include in my cat's diet? I can't find taurine-alone tablets in pet stores, only vitamin tablets that include taurine. Are these useful at all? any opinions, help, corrections appreciated, thanks. |
#2
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1) my question is: what are excessive levels of nutrients?
Some nutrients are in fact toxic to lethal if overdosed, but as long as you do not supplement your cat with these nutrients (unless under veterinary supervision), you should be fine. These nutrients are all essential metals (sodium, potassium, iron, copper, nickel, cobalt, manganese, magnesium, etc.), and some vitamins (vitamins A, D, K). Calcium can be dangerous if not properly balanced with phosphorus. If properly balanced, most of it may pass straight through and not even go into the blood. The AAFCO says a calciumhosphorus ratio of anywhere from 1:1 to 3:1 is fine. Since liver contains a lot of vitamin A, it is a good idea to not feed it too often. I give my cats liver once a week. Fish is also rich in minerals, so that´s another thing I do not give more than once a week. All commercial foods should be within acceptable limits (or ratios) of all nutrients mentioned above. A lot of people state that excess magnesium can lead to struvites (a magnesium salt that precipitates in the bladder and causes blockage). It can happen indeed but in alkaline urine. In acidic urine you would need a huge amount of magnesium to get those crystals precipitating. Proper amounts of magnesium have been shown to protect from calcium oxalate stones. One thing that I found amusing when this mania of cutting down on magnesium began is that not one manufacturer of commercial food told customers to check what kind of clay they used in their litter box. One very popular clay is a magnesium salt so it´s no use cutting magnesium down in the diet and using that clay in the litter box. Cat goes to box, than licks his paws and… so much for a low-magnesium diet. If i'm preparing homemade, how much? If you are preparing homemade, don´t feed liver, kidney (rich in minerals) and fish too often. I personally find it very advisable to supplement with an antioxidant formula containing vitamin E, linoleic, linolenic and arachidonic acids (or omega fatty acids or PUFAs). Although meats contain those nutrients, they are easily oxidized by air so depending on how much time has passed from the day the animal was killed to the day the meat is consumed, it will have lost much of it. If you intend to cook the food, then this supplementation is mandatory since these nutrients are easily destroyed by heat. Cheryl uses a great supplement but I can't remember the name. should i be looking out for ratios, percentages or quantities ? If you are buying a commercial food, I believe no brand is using excessive amounts or incorrect ratios of anything in there. If you are preparing home-made, don´t feed some meats too often (above). There are great books out there with home-made recipes and one of these books will even give you a nutrient analysis of each of the recipes. i know about calcium: phosphorous having to be 1.2: 1.2.1 (correct?) , but WHAT happens if it's 1: 1.2 or .79: 1.2? how bad is it? Anything from 1:1 to 3:1 Ca:P is ok according to the AAFCO. If what you wrote above is 1 calcium: 1.2 phosphorus and 0.79 calcium to 1.2 phosphorus, that´s not ok. But if it´s 1.2 calcium to 0.79 phosphorus, that´s ok. for example, right now I am feeding a combination of Back to Basics dry food and Prota Cat Steak and Kidney. Both these foods have calcium-phosphorous ratios that are not 1.2: 1.2.1 but are sort of close. Should I supplement? Never supplement on minerals unless under veterinary supervision. If you gave your cats bones, you would be supplementing but there´s a big difference in feeding bones and giving prepared supplements. Bones come in a perfectly balanced ratio and most of it does not even enter the bloodstream from what I have observed. Supplements (calcium) are made with a very soluble calcium salt and easily enter the bloodstream. Here is the label reading for Back to Basics Back to Basics (from packet labelling - the packet labelling is a bit different from their web site labelling) Crude Protein not less than 34.00% Crude Fat not less than 21.00% Crude Fiber not less than 3.50% Moisture not more than 10.00% Ash not more than 5.6% Calcium not more than 1.1% Phosphorous not more than 1.0% Magnesium not more than 0.095% (is this high?) Copper = 33.06mg/kg Looks good. How about the ingredients? In addition i have these questions: First, does this mean that the carb count for BtoB is 25.9%? (100-34-21-3.5-10-5.6=25.9) That´s it. Although fibers are carbs, they are not digested so can be subtracted along with the rest. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a dry food without at least 20-30% grain content, right? It would be possible to do a dry food with zero carbs but it would be extremely expensive. You would need the same kind of process used in a pharmaceutical industry for making brewer's yeast tablets. Don´t forget the most important "nutrient": water. Cats on canned diets ingest much more water than cats on dry diets. Ideally, dry should be given only as treat or snack. ASH When meat is cooked, ash is produced. The ash content in cat food is proportional to the amount of meat in the food. In other words, the higher the meat content, the higher the ash. Not necessarily true. A person could formulate a plant-only diet and supplement with minerals (ash). OTOH, a diet that claims to have lots of meat cannot be low in ash (especially phosphorus). This is one thing that you need to remember if you prepare a homemade diet. Meats have much more phosphorus than calcium so bones should always be included. I also like to include milk but not all cats can drink milk without consequences. (The only way to get lower ash content is to supplement cheap vegetable proteins) Vegetable protein is not only cheap but it is also of very low quality. So is this true? This ash - if I were to cook my own meat, is ash produced or is it only produced by commercial machines or something? Ash is what cannot be burned, that is, minerals. If you look up some meats in the USDA site, you will see that all meats contain minerals. It´s not produced by the machines. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl Am I supposed to be able to see this ash? If I'm going to feed raw (like the Prota Cat), there's NO ash becuase it's not cooked, then? No. There is ash but you can´t see it. Do you have a fireplace? When you burn a log, ash remains, right? Same with meat. You can roast meat until there´s nothing but ash left. My colleague was showing me a NZ brand of catfood (some kind of semi wet food )she had just bought called Nature's Gift (I think) and i happened to see it had 12% ash - isn't that TOO HIGH? (according to the back to basics web site description that's very high). I don´t know the food but semi-moist is considered the worst food there is because of all the chemicals you need to put in there, especially to protect from mold. There are reports that dogs fed semi-moist foods had their lives cut in half. I don´t understand why Waltham had to add nuggets to Whiskas. Why make it worst than it was already? Third, the phosphorous content for B2B, it's OK but on the high side? You will not find anywhere in literature anything saying that dietary phosphorus in the levels used in pet food and properly balanced with calcium is detrimental to kidneys. What you will find is papers saying that phosphorus is detrimental if there is too much phosphorus in blood, a condition called hyperphosphataemia. This condition usually appears when there´s very little kidney function left and IMO, it´s not caused by dietary phosphorus but by bone dissolution because of metabolic acidosis. A study showed that cutting down on phosphorus did not increase the life expectancy of dogs in the terminal stage of kidney disease. Another study showed that cutting down of phosphorus increased the life expectancy of cats with kidney disease. Maintenance diets for dogs are not acidified. Maintenance diets for cats are acidified. Kidney diets for cats are not acidified. IMO, it´s not the lower phosphorus that extended their lives but controlling metabolic acidosis. One very respected veterinary nephrologist suspects that it is the acidifying nature of maintenance diets for cats that cause metabolic acidosis in cats with advanced kidney disease. See if you can find a thread called "Chronic Renal Failure." I wrote a big post there and listed all references, some with links. Metabolic acidosis will cause among other problems, bone dissolution (hyperphosphataemia, hypercalcemia), and protein catalysis (high BUN and creatinine). Excess acid in blood will also accelerate kidney damage. I also feed Prota Pak Catfood (chilled). The calcium is 1% and the phosphorous is 1.2%. Is this not acceptable?? To supplement that should be trying to put the balance back by putting in .1% of calcium? I understand that´s not the only thing you feed. Add all the ratios of everything you feed and make sure the final ratio is anywhere from 1:1 and 3:1 Ca:P. 2) Taurine My (insufficient) reading tells me that meat itself is a source of taurine. Therefore if I'm feeding a raw food diet (like porta pak catfood), is that enough taurine, or do i need to add by-products (hearts or liver for taurine?)? What is the minimum mg or % of taurine I should include in my cat's diet? I can't find taurine-alone tablets in pet stores, only vitamin tablets that include taurine. Are these useful at all? Don´t worry about supplementing taurine if you are feeding commercial + raw meats. The only deficiency one of my cats had after 9 months eating only raw beef muscle and raw liver once a week was vitamin E deficiency (mentioned earlier about supplementation). In zoos, the only cats that needed extra supplementation of taurine besides what they got from the meat they were given were leopards. If you are feeding only homemade, some recipes will request extra supplementation and some won´t. Adding heart to your cat´s diet if you are feeding him only homemade is a good idea. There is a group of raw feeders that you can join. They will give you a lot of help and info on preparing homemade. A holistic vet will most likely help you too. And, of course, expect another war to start from this thread! LOL |
#3
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1) my question is: what are excessive levels of nutrients?
Some nutrients are in fact toxic to lethal if overdosed, but as long as you do not supplement your cat with these nutrients (unless under veterinary supervision), you should be fine. These nutrients are all essential metals (sodium, potassium, iron, copper, nickel, cobalt, manganese, magnesium, etc.), and some vitamins (vitamins A, D, K). Calcium can be dangerous if not properly balanced with phosphorus. If properly balanced, most of it may pass straight through and not even go into the blood. The AAFCO says a calciumhosphorus ratio of anywhere from 1:1 to 3:1 is fine. Since liver contains a lot of vitamin A, it is a good idea to not feed it too often. I give my cats liver once a week. Fish is also rich in minerals, so that´s another thing I do not give more than once a week. All commercial foods should be within acceptable limits (or ratios) of all nutrients mentioned above. A lot of people state that excess magnesium can lead to struvites (a magnesium salt that precipitates in the bladder and causes blockage). It can happen indeed but in alkaline urine. In acidic urine you would need a huge amount of magnesium to get those crystals precipitating. Proper amounts of magnesium have been shown to protect from calcium oxalate stones. One thing that I found amusing when this mania of cutting down on magnesium began is that not one manufacturer of commercial food told customers to check what kind of clay they used in their litter box. One very popular clay is a magnesium salt so it´s no use cutting magnesium down in the diet and using that clay in the litter box. Cat goes to box, than licks his paws and… so much for a low-magnesium diet. If i'm preparing homemade, how much? If you are preparing homemade, don´t feed liver, kidney (rich in minerals) and fish too often. I personally find it very advisable to supplement with an antioxidant formula containing vitamin E, linoleic, linolenic and arachidonic acids (or omega fatty acids or PUFAs). Although meats contain those nutrients, they are easily oxidized by air so depending on how much time has passed from the day the animal was killed to the day the meat is consumed, it will have lost much of it. If you intend to cook the food, then this supplementation is mandatory since these nutrients are easily destroyed by heat. Cheryl uses a great supplement but I can't remember the name. should i be looking out for ratios, percentages or quantities ? If you are buying a commercial food, I believe no brand is using excessive amounts or incorrect ratios of anything in there. If you are preparing home-made, don´t feed some meats too often (above). There are great books out there with home-made recipes and one of these books will even give you a nutrient analysis of each of the recipes. i know about calcium: phosphorous having to be 1.2: 1.2.1 (correct?) , but WHAT happens if it's 1: 1.2 or .79: 1.2? how bad is it? Anything from 1:1 to 3:1 Ca:P is ok according to the AAFCO. If what you wrote above is 1 calcium: 1.2 phosphorus and 0.79 calcium to 1.2 phosphorus, that´s not ok. But if it´s 1.2 calcium to 0.79 phosphorus, that´s ok. for example, right now I am feeding a combination of Back to Basics dry food and Prota Cat Steak and Kidney. Both these foods have calcium-phosphorous ratios that are not 1.2: 1.2.1 but are sort of close. Should I supplement? Never supplement on minerals unless under veterinary supervision. If you gave your cats bones, you would be supplementing but there´s a big difference in feeding bones and giving prepared supplements. Bones come in a perfectly balanced ratio and most of it does not even enter the bloodstream from what I have observed. Supplements (calcium) are made with a very soluble calcium salt and easily enter the bloodstream. Here is the label reading for Back to Basics Back to Basics (from packet labelling - the packet labelling is a bit different from their web site labelling) Crude Protein not less than 34.00% Crude Fat not less than 21.00% Crude Fiber not less than 3.50% Moisture not more than 10.00% Ash not more than 5.6% Calcium not more than 1.1% Phosphorous not more than 1.0% Magnesium not more than 0.095% (is this high?) Copper = 33.06mg/kg Looks good. How about the ingredients? In addition i have these questions: First, does this mean that the carb count for BtoB is 25.9%? (100-34-21-3.5-10-5.6=25.9) That´s it. Although fibers are carbs, they are not digested so can be subtracted along with the rest. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a dry food without at least 20-30% grain content, right? It would be possible to do a dry food with zero carbs but it would be extremely expensive. You would need the same kind of process used in a pharmaceutical industry for making brewer's yeast tablets. Don´t forget the most important "nutrient": water. Cats on canned diets ingest much more water than cats on dry diets. Ideally, dry should be given only as treat or snack. ASH When meat is cooked, ash is produced. The ash content in cat food is proportional to the amount of meat in the food. In other words, the higher the meat content, the higher the ash. Not necessarily true. A person could formulate a plant-only diet and supplement with minerals (ash). OTOH, a diet that claims to have lots of meat cannot be low in ash (especially phosphorus). This is one thing that you need to remember if you prepare a homemade diet. Meats have much more phosphorus than calcium so bones should always be included. I also like to include milk but not all cats can drink milk without consequences. (The only way to get lower ash content is to supplement cheap vegetable proteins) Vegetable protein is not only cheap but it is also of very low quality. So is this true? This ash - if I were to cook my own meat, is ash produced or is it only produced by commercial machines or something? Ash is what cannot be burned, that is, minerals. If you look up some meats in the USDA site, you will see that all meats contain minerals. It´s not produced by the machines. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl Am I supposed to be able to see this ash? If I'm going to feed raw (like the Prota Cat), there's NO ash becuase it's not cooked, then? No. There is ash but you can´t see it. Do you have a fireplace? When you burn a log, ash remains, right? Same with meat. You can roast meat until there´s nothing but ash left. My colleague was showing me a NZ brand of catfood (some kind of semi wet food )she had just bought called Nature's Gift (I think) and i happened to see it had 12% ash - isn't that TOO HIGH? (according to the back to basics web site description that's very high). I don´t know the food but semi-moist is considered the worst food there is because of all the chemicals you need to put in there, especially to protect from mold. There are reports that dogs fed semi-moist foods had their lives cut in half. I don´t understand why Waltham had to add nuggets to Whiskas. Why make it worst than it was already? Third, the phosphorous content for B2B, it's OK but on the high side? You will not find anywhere in literature anything saying that dietary phosphorus in the levels used in pet food and properly balanced with calcium is detrimental to kidneys. What you will find is papers saying that phosphorus is detrimental if there is too much phosphorus in blood, a condition called hyperphosphataemia. This condition usually appears when there´s very little kidney function left and IMO, it´s not caused by dietary phosphorus but by bone dissolution because of metabolic acidosis. A study showed that cutting down on phosphorus did not increase the life expectancy of dogs in the terminal stage of kidney disease. Another study showed that cutting down of phosphorus increased the life expectancy of cats with kidney disease. Maintenance diets for dogs are not acidified. Maintenance diets for cats are acidified. Kidney diets for cats are not acidified. IMO, it´s not the lower phosphorus that extended their lives but controlling metabolic acidosis. One very respected veterinary nephrologist suspects that it is the acidifying nature of maintenance diets for cats that cause metabolic acidosis in cats with advanced kidney disease. See if you can find a thread called "Chronic Renal Failure." I wrote a big post there and listed all references, some with links. Metabolic acidosis will cause among other problems, bone dissolution (hyperphosphataemia, hypercalcemia), and protein catalysis (high BUN and creatinine). Excess acid in blood will also accelerate kidney damage. I also feed Prota Pak Catfood (chilled). The calcium is 1% and the phosphorous is 1.2%. Is this not acceptable?? To supplement that should be trying to put the balance back by putting in .1% of calcium? I understand that´s not the only thing you feed. Add all the ratios of everything you feed and make sure the final ratio is anywhere from 1:1 and 3:1 Ca:P. 2) Taurine My (insufficient) reading tells me that meat itself is a source of taurine. Therefore if I'm feeding a raw food diet (like porta pak catfood), is that enough taurine, or do i need to add by-products (hearts or liver for taurine?)? What is the minimum mg or % of taurine I should include in my cat's diet? I can't find taurine-alone tablets in pet stores, only vitamin tablets that include taurine. Are these useful at all? Don´t worry about supplementing taurine if you are feeding commercial + raw meats. The only deficiency one of my cats had after 9 months eating only raw beef muscle and raw liver once a week was vitamin E deficiency (mentioned earlier about supplementation). In zoos, the only cats that needed extra supplementation of taurine besides what they got from the meat they were given were leopards. If you are feeding only homemade, some recipes will request extra supplementation and some won´t. Adding heart to your cat´s diet if you are feeding him only homemade is a good idea. There is a group of raw feeders that you can join. They will give you a lot of help and info on preparing homemade. A holistic vet will most likely help you too. And, of course, expect another war to start from this thread! LOL |
#4
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A study showed that cutting down on phosphorus did
not increase the life expectancy of dogs in the terminal stage of kidney disease. Is this a very old study? There was a study done at the U. of Minnesota back in 2001 or 2002 that showed dogs fed a low phosphorus food lived over 3 times as long (on average) and with 1/2 the uremic crisises (sp?) as dogs on a "maintenance" food. (and these were dogs "in the terminal stage of kidney disease). Actually kidney disease is always fatal, so at what point do you believe to be the "terminal stage" of kidney disease? |
#5
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A study showed that cutting down on phosphorus did
not increase the life expectancy of dogs in the terminal stage of kidney disease. Is this a very old study? There was a study done at the U. of Minnesota back in 2001 or 2002 that showed dogs fed a low phosphorus food lived over 3 times as long (on average) and with 1/2 the uremic crisises (sp?) as dogs on a "maintenance" food. (and these were dogs "in the terminal stage of kidney disease). Actually kidney disease is always fatal, so at what point do you believe to be the "terminal stage" of kidney disease? |
#6
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Is this a very old study? There was a study done at the U. of Minnesota back
in 2001 or 2002 that showed dogs fed a low phosphorus food lived over 3 times as long (on average) and with 1/2 the uremic crisises (sp?) as dogs on a "maintenance" food. (and these were dogs "in the terminal stage of kidney disease). Actually kidney disease is always fatal, so at what point do you believe to be the "terminal stage" of kidney disease? Gauby, life is fatal. If you are alive, you are definitively going to die some day. But to answer your question, by terminal stage I mean symptoms start to appear and CRF is diagnosed (20% kidney function left?). Do you have the reference of that newer study with dogs? Thanks. |
#7
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Is this a very old study? There was a study done at the U. of Minnesota back
in 2001 or 2002 that showed dogs fed a low phosphorus food lived over 3 times as long (on average) and with 1/2 the uremic crisises (sp?) as dogs on a "maintenance" food. (and these were dogs "in the terminal stage of kidney disease). Actually kidney disease is always fatal, so at what point do you believe to be the "terminal stage" of kidney disease? Gauby, life is fatal. If you are alive, you are definitively going to die some day. But to answer your question, by terminal stage I mean symptoms start to appear and CRF is diagnosed (20% kidney function left?). Do you have the reference of that newer study with dogs? Thanks. |
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