Goodbye

In ,
typed:
Yowie wrote:

In
,
NettieCat typed:
On Feb 1, 12:35 pm, David Stevenson wrote:
As I expect you remember I posted a humorous little article a month
or
two ago, and was immediately attacked by Gandalf. Technically, I
suppose, the attack was on my wife. One reason given for this
unprovoked attack was that Gandalf had suffered a loss.

We have all lost cats, or dogs or family members. It is not
acceptable to be rude to someone else because we have had a loss.

I was very upset. I still feel upset well over a month later at
this scurrilous and unprovoked attack. When I indicated how upset
I was, a minority of people though Gandalf's attack was
acceptable, some because Gandalf had suffered a loss. Yowie said I
was mean-spirited to be so
upset.

I did not want to do anything quickly so I have left it for over a
month to see how I felt. What do I feel?

First, I could never post another anecdote here. I would have no
idea whether someone would attack me, perhaps "because they had
had a loss".

Second, I am almost more shocked at Yowie than the original attack.
Being so upset that I have been in tears having read it does not
seem "mean-spirited". I suppose Yowie is merely blaming the victim
which seems all the rage these days but I see no reason to blame
victims.

Third, since I have not felt like reading here since, I expect not
reading this NG will not be the end of the world. While I have
enjoyed
many many articles here, the only loss i really feel from not
reading the articles is not reading Mark Edward's articles. I see
he is on Facebook: I do hope he will post articles there as much
as possible.

Of course I shall regret going. I was reading rec.pets.cats before
RPCA was ever invented. At least I can re-read the hundreds of
articles
on my site, plus the hundreds more I have collected but not yet put
on
my Storypage. They will get there in time. If anyone nice wants to
communicate with me I can be found on Facebook.

I remember the years when I had more time and tried to greet
everyone with my welcome letter and the standard letters I had for
specific problems, like a lost cat. I used to send them out, and
enjoyed it. Sadly, I have had less time for NGs and had to stop
that. Of course I also remember the bad times: the worst article I
ever read here was a long article praising "our" country and "our"
soldiers and the fact that "we" are the best country in the world
and went on in this vein. The
author was so insensitive on an international NG that she never
mentioned the country. Amazing.

I was also attacked for giving my standard letters to the NG when I
felt I had no longer the time to keep sending them out. I never
understood that.

I was very sad that when Flippy and I both had web sites with many
many stories and the search for a lost cat made the national media
in New Zealand they were told all about Flippy's page but not mine.

But nothing had quite prepared me for an unjustified attack because
of
a little story about Nico or Nemo. I shall post no more stories
about them: I shall read no more.

Of course this NG was also noticeably less friendly and supportive
than in the days when every second day there was a story by Dave
Yehudah, whom I had the privilege of meeting twice in Los Angeles,
and
who has many stories on my Storypage. If people want this NG to
continue I suggest you should discourage the nasty people, not
encourage them, and accept everyone has losses, but they do not
justify rudeness.

Ok, Gandalf, Yowie, you have seen me off. Good-bye.

--
David Stevenson Storypage:http://blakjak.org/sty_menu.htm
Liverpool, England, UK Emails welcome
Nico: SI Vp B 0.6 Y++ L-- W C+++ I+++ T+ A+ E++ H S+ V+ F- Q P+ B+
PA PL- SC+ Nemo: SI Vp B 0.6 Y++ L-- W C+++ I+++ T A+ E++ H S+ V+
F- Q P B+ PA PL- SC+

I'm sorry that you've made this decision David, I can understand why
things have piled up and left you feeling unappreciated, after all
that you've done for everyone here. I just wish that you could see
that there still is some good here.

I also think that you misread Yowie's comments, she would never hurt
you deliberately, but that's between the two of you.

Thanks for saying that, Jeanette -and you are right. I never
intended to hurt David (i thought I was defending him!) and feel
that I've been very much taken out of context on this one.

It's interesting. I've seen a number of people "take their leave" in a
similar manner, and once they've decided they're not wanted somewhere,
their minds are made up and nothing anyone does or says seems capable
of changing that.

Whereas if I were feeling like David is feeling, your comment above
(along with the comments of several others, asking David to stay)
would change my mind in an INSTANT. Usually when I feel hurt and
rejected, all it would take is a few people to say, "No, we love you
Joyce, please don't go!" and I'd be *over it*.

This is not to say that I wouldn't feel the same way again sometime in
the future, for some other reason, but that particular episode would
be over for me.

We all have our upset, cranky and irrational moments, and I'm
certainly no exception. On the other hand, I don't think I'm any
*more* cranky or irrational than anyone else. I guess the bottom line
is, no matter how nice a person is, "nice" doesn't really buy much.
That's not what makes people care about each other, in the end. David
Yehudah wasn't popular here because he was *nice*. He was popular
because he was funny, and entertaining - a spinner of wild tales with
a unique take on life. I'm confident that David Stevenson is liked in
a simliar manner, so he's allowed an occasional outburst.

Exactly!

I've known David for 15 years. He and his wife were guests in my home, we
ate together and told stories together. (I would have loved to have taken
him to see the sights around Wollongong, but alas, the car picked that very
day to break down). He even had the honour of giving the legendary Shmogg a
scritching (and that cat was an impeccable judge of character!). I would be
the first in line to praise all he's done for the cat community and his
gentlemanly behaviour here. I also understand he's deeply passionate and
protective of his wife, and will go to great lengths to defend her from any
perceived threat, real or otherwise. That is who he is, and I have a deep
and abiding respect for the man. I am prepared to cut him a great deal of
slack based on his exemplary behaviour over the years, his contribution to
the online cat community, and even the fact that he's clearly still besotted
by his wife (which is a wonderful thing in and of itself).

And thus I am more than a little bewildered by this, and am rather saddened
that he feels leaving the group is necessary. I am also just a bit hurt that
he's laid the cause of his departure at my feet without trying to sort it
out with me first considering how long we've known each other (but I'll let
it pass). I am also mystified as to why - if Gandalf and I have offended him
that much that no reconciliation is possible - that he couldn't just quietly
put us into his killfile and stay on with the rest of the group. Again, this
seems so out of character for David, I am deeply worried about him - I know
how much this group means to him and how he is usually so logical and
rational - it all seems such an extreme reaction to what in essence was,
IMHO, a misunderstanding (and could have been cured by liberal application
of a killfile anyway).

*sigh*

If that doesn't give you at least second thoughts, David, perhaps nothing
will...

Yowie (holding out an olive branch....)

Joy wrote:

wrote in message

We all have our upset, cranky and irrational moments, and I'm certainly
no exception. On the other hand, I don't think I'm any *more* cranky or
irrational than anyone else. I guess the bottom line is, no matter how
nice a person is, "nice" doesn't really buy much. That's not what makes
people care about each other, in the end. David Yehudah wasn't popular
here because he was *nice*. He was popular because he was funny, and
entertaining - a spinner of wild tales with a unique take on life. I'm
confident that David Stevenson is liked in a simliar manner, so he's
allowed an occasional outburst.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I happen to like people who are
nice, and the fact that they are nice is probably the main reason I like
them. If they are entertaining, that's a plus.

I guess YMMV on this one. I've encountered plenty of people in my life
for whom "niceness" isn't nearly as important as intelligence, being
interesting, funny, etc. This isn't to say that such people make a point
of cultivating friendships with jerks. Just that, maybe, they're willing
to tolerate a bit of arrogance or opinionated inflexibility from someone
if they're really smart and cool. I have friends who feel this way.

I have mixed feelings about this. For me, niceness and being interesting/
smart are equally important. I don't usually want to hang around with
people who are too much of one *or* the other. If I had to choose between
them, I don't know what I'd do.

But one thing I know I don't like is the double standard that exists
for people who are perceived as interesting, entertaining, funny, smart,
or whatever it that people find attractive, and those who are not. If
people think you're cool, they'll cut you some slack when you have a
bad day. But if they don't find you particularly interesting, the rules
are different. Why should they put up with even the occasional outburst
from someone if they don't even like them that much to begin with?

That's where I was going with my last post. It's not that I don't care
about people being nice. It's that I don't think most people care about
that as much as they care about other qualities. I guess you are an
exception to that. Well, I for one am glad to hear it.

Joyce

--
- Your mom and I are going to divorce next month.
- What??? Why! Call me please?
- I wrote Disney and this phone changed it. We are going to Disney.
-- damnyouautocorrect.com

In ,
typed:
Joy wrote:

wrote in message

We all have our upset, cranky and irrational moments, and I'm
certainly no exception. On the other hand, I don't think I'm any
*more* cranky or irrational than anyone else. I guess the bottom
line is, no matter how nice a person is, "nice" doesn't really buy
much. That's not what makes people care about each other, in the
end. David Yehudah wasn't popular here because he was *nice*. He
was popular because he was funny, and entertaining - a spinner of
wild tales with a unique take on life. I'm confident that David
Stevenson is liked in a simliar manner, so he's allowed an
occasional outburst.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I happen to like people
who are nice, and the fact that they are nice is probably the main
reason I like them. If they are entertaining, that's a plus.

I guess YMMV on this one. I've encountered plenty of people in my life
for whom "niceness" isn't nearly as important as intelligence, being
interesting, funny, etc. This isn't to say that such people make a
point of cultivating friendships with jerks. Just that, maybe,
they're willing to tolerate a bit of arrogance or opinionated
inflexibility from someone if they're really smart and cool. I have
friends who feel this way.

I will put up with jerky behaviour if an only if I know its a) not the usual
state of affairs and b) said relationship is worth the occasional bit of
jerk tolerance. I fsomeone has a high jerk factor, but is also exceptionally
funny, for example, I certianly won't want their company if I'm feeling a
bit sensitive or down. But will tolerate some jerkitude for a fun night out
when I'm feeling a bit better about myself and the world in general (ie, I
have more tolerance to jerkitude). Such peopel are unlikely to be in the
group of people I refer to as good friends, but I can still enjoy their
company.... in small doses at least.

I have mixed feelings about this. For me, niceness and being
interesting/ smart are equally important. I don't usually want to
hang around with people who are too much of one *or* the other. If I
had to choose between them, I don't know what I'd do.

But one thing I know I don't like is the double standard that exists
for people who are perceived as interesting, entertaining, funny,
smart, or whatever it that people find attractive, and those who are
not. If people think you're cool, they'll cut you some slack when you
have a
bad day.

With people I know welll enough to know that they aren't full time jerks,
I'll cut them some slack based usually on how well I know them and how out
of character the episode of jerkness is.

And, as much as it sounds selfish, I am more prepared to put up with a jerk
from someone who - when not being a jerk - makes my life more enjoyable.

Or, in other words, I'll cut them a degree of slack based on how much
not-being-a-jerk 'credit' they've built up with me

When its someone realtively new, the socially acceptable 'norm' is that you
are still on your 'best manners' until you get to know each other well
enough to be a jerk on occaion and be forgiven. This point usually occurs at
roughly the same time you would be OK about letting out a loud and aromatic
fart out in their company :-)

But if they don't find you particularly interesting, the
rules are different. Why should they put up with even the occasional
outburst from someone if they don't even like them that much to begin
with?

Because the price you pay (putting up with jerk-ness) is not worth the
benefits you receive (friendship, entertainment etc etc)

That's where I was going with my last post. It's not that I don't care
about people being nice. It's that I don't think most people care
about that as much as they care about other qualities. I guess you
are an exception to that. Well, I for one am glad to hear it.


Its all a balnce. There's probably some really nice people out there who
would bore me to tears, as well as some simply *fascinating* people I would
have to supress the urge to punch in the face. Most people are somewhere in
between, :-)

Yowie

Dave, I can sort of understand how it can be construed that way, but I
don't think Gandalf was intending at all to disparage your wife.

I don't want for us to run out of Daves!

Yowie wrote:

I will put up with jerky behaviour if an only if I know its a) not the usual
state of affairs and b) said relationship is worth the occasional bit of
jerk tolerance. I fsomeone has a high jerk factor, but is also exceptionally
funny, for example, I certianly won't want their company if I'm feeling a
bit sensitive or down. But will tolerate some jerkitude for a fun night out
when I'm feeling a bit better about myself and the world in general (ie, I
have more tolerance to jerkitude).

Well, that's it in a nutshell. Feeling sensitive is my normal state. I
don't even mean depressed - I'm just extremely sensitive to anything that
feels like a put-down. So I have very little tolerance for that. I guess
that's why my friends don't mind a moderate amount of that behavior -
they're a lot less sensitive than I am.

With people I know welll enough to know that they aren't full time jerks,
I'll cut them some slack based usually on how well I know them and how out
of character the episode of jerkness is.

And, as much as it sounds selfish, I am more prepared to put up with a jerk
from someone who - when not being a jerk - makes my life more enjoyable.

Or, in other words, I'll cut them a degree of slack based on how much
not-being-a-jerk 'credit' they've built up with me

When its someone realtively new, the socially acceptable 'norm' is that you
are still on your 'best manners' until you get to know each other well
enough to be a jerk on occaion and be forgiven. This point usually occurs at
roughly the same time you would be OK about letting out a loud and aromatic
fart out in their company :-)

LOL. There are some people I never get to that point with. BUt it's not
for lack of closeness. Some people are just a bit prim - about farting and
occasional jerkiness.

Anyway, it sounds like you're talking about this in terms of one-to-one
relationships. I was thinking more about social situations, group dynamics.
So, what a particular individual is willing to tolerate in their friends'
behavior is one thing. But I've noticed that in many groups, there are
just some people whose "jerkiness", for lack of a better word, is excused
more often than it is for others, just because they happen to be popular.
That offends my sense of fair play. I think everyone should be held to the
same expectations within the same social group.

Yeah, I know, "life's not fair". But that doesn't mean I have to like it...

Joyce

--
Taxes: Money you complain about giving the government, to pay for
services whose absence you would complain about.
-- John O'Hanlon

"Lesley" wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 12:35 pm, David Stevenson wrote:
. At least I can re-read the hundreds of articles
on my site, plus the hundreds more I have collected but not yet put on
my Storypage. They will get there in time. If anyone nice wants to
communicate with me I can be found on Facebook.

I am sorry that you have decided this- I shall miss your stories but
see you on FB

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

I'll miss his stories and anecdotes but won't see him on FB. On Usenet,
it's called a killfile. I can understand being upset about comments about
his wife. But I've endured plenty of rude commentary over the years and I
didn't bail. Facebook is not where you'll find me. Don't think it will be
any better. It's just another social network and I doubt it will change
anything.

OB Cats: Persia curled up next to me when I couldn't sleep again and last
night on the couch she got next to me and purred. That may not seem like a
big deal but it is to me. It finally put me to sleep, even though I don't
want to sleep on the couch.

Jill

"David Stevenson" wrote in message
...

As I expect you remember I posted a humorous little article a month or
two ago, and was immediately attacked by Gandalf. Technically, I suppose,
the attack was on my wife. One reason given for this unprovoked attack
was that Gandalf had suffered a loss.

We have all lost cats, or dogs or family members. It is not acceptable
to be rude to someone else because we have had a loss.

I was very upset. I still feel upset well over a month later at this
scurrilous and unprovoked attack. When I indicated how upset I was, a
minority of people though Gandalf's attack was acceptable, some because
Gandalf had suffered a loss. Yowie said I was mean-spirited to be so
upset.

I did not want to do anything quickly so I have left it for over a month
to see how I felt. What do I feel?

First, I could never post another anecdote here. I would have no idea
whether someone would attack me, perhaps "because they had had a loss".

Second, I am almost more shocked at Yowie than the original attack.
Being so upset that I have been in tears having read it does not seem
"mean-spirited". I suppose Yowie is merely blaming the victim which seems
all the rage these days but I see no reason to blame victims.

Third, since I have not felt like reading here since, I expect not
reading this NG will not be the end of the world. While I have enjoyed
many many articles here, the only loss i really feel from not reading the
articles is not reading Mark Edward's articles. I see he is on Facebook:
I do hope he will post articles there as much as possible.

Of course I shall regret going. I was reading rec.pets.cats before RPCA
was ever invented. At least I can re-read the hundreds of articles on my
site, plus the hundreds more I have collected but not yet put on my
Storypage. They will get there in time. If anyone nice wants to
communicate with me I can be found on Facebook.

I remember the years when I had more time and tried to greet everyone
with my welcome letter and the standard letters I had for specific
problems, like a lost cat. I used to send them out, and enjoyed it.
Sadly, I have had less time for NGs and had to stop that. Of course I
also remember the bad times: the worst article I ever read here was a long
article praising "our" country and "our" soldiers and the fact that "we"
are the best country in the world and went on in this vein. The author
was so insensitive on an international NG that she never mentioned the
country. Amazing.

I was also attacked for giving my standard letters to the NG when I felt
I had no longer the time to keep sending them out. I never understood
that.

I was very sad that when Flippy and I both had web sites with many many
stories and the search for a lost cat made the national media in New
Zealand they were told all about Flippy's page but not mine.

But nothing had quite prepared me for an unjustified attack because of a
little story about Nico or Nemo. I shall post no more stories about them:
I shall read no more.

Of course this NG was also noticeably less friendly and supportive than
in the days when every second day there was a story by Dave Yehudah, whom
I had the privilege of meeting twice in Los Angeles, and who has many
stories on my Storypage. If people want this NG to continue I suggest you
should discourage the nasty people, not encourage them, and accept
everyone has losses, but they do not justify rudeness.

Ok, Gandalf, Yowie, you have seen me off. Good-bye.

--

I'm sorry that that you feel like this. Myself, I do not particularly care
if no-one agrees with me, I will continue to post anyway.
I have wept too, David, occasionally at replies.
Gird your loins.
Tweed


at you feel

"Jack Campin" wrote in message
...
Dave, I can sort of understand how it can be construed that way, but I
don't think Gandalf was intending at all to disparage your wife.

We've no idea what he meant since he never came back to explain how
he came to go off at such an outrageously bizarre tangent. It was
grossly insulting, and it was quite unbelievable that anybody here
wanted to excuse it in any way.

He still owes David and his wife a sincere, unqualified and public
apology. And if what he did was the result of psychopathology, he
needs to get it treated rather than inflict his diseased behaviour
on others.

I never saw these posts and went back to see what the fuss was about. It
might help if Gandalf does not use CAPITALS which is construed as shouting.
To be honest, if Boyfie sunk his teeth into my leg more than once, he'd be
surprised at the dreadful happening that occurred as a result.
Tweed

On Feb 1, 7:35*am, David Stevenson wrote:
* *As I expect you remember I posted a humorous little article a month or
two ago, and was immediately attacked by Gandalf. *Technically, I
suppose, the attack was on my wife. *One reason given for this
unprovoked attack was that Gandalf had suffered a loss.

* *We have all lost cats, or dogs or family members. *It is not
acceptable to be rude to someone else because we have had a loss.

* *I was very upset. *I still feel upset well over a month later at this
scurrilous and unprovoked attack. *When I indicated how upset I was, a
minority of people though Gandalf's attack was acceptable, some because
Gandalf had suffered a loss. *Yowie said I was mean-spirited to be so
upset.

* *I did not want to do anything quickly so I have left it for over a
month to see how I felt. *What do I feel?

* *First, I could never post another anecdote here. *I would have no idea
whether someone would attack me, perhaps "because they had had a loss".

* *Second, I am almost more shocked at Yowie than the original attack..
Being so upset that I have been in tears having read it does not seem
"mean-spirited". *I suppose Yowie is merely blaming the victim which
seems all the rage these days but I see no reason to blame victims.

* *Third, since I have not felt like reading here since, I expect not
reading this NG will not be the end of the world. *While I have enjoyed
many many articles here, the only loss i really feel from not reading
the articles is not reading Mark Edward's articles. *I see he is on
Facebook: I do hope he will post articles there as much as possible.

* *Of course I shall regret going. *I was reading rec.pets.cats before
RPCA was ever invented. *At least I can re-read the hundreds of articles
on my site, plus the hundreds more I have collected but not yet put on
my Storypage. *They will get there in time. *If anyone nice wants to
communicate with me I can be found on Facebook.

* *I remember the years when I had more time and tried to greet everyone
with my welcome letter and the standard letters I had for specific
problems, like a lost cat. *I used to send them out, and enjoyed it.
Sadly, I have had less time for NGs and had to stop that. *Of course I
also remember the bad times: the worst article I ever read here was a
long article praising "our" country and "our" soldiers and the fact that
"we" are the best country in the world and went on in this vein. *The
author was so insensitive on an international NG that she never
mentioned the country. *Amazing.

* *I was also attacked for giving my standard letters to the NG when I
felt I had no longer the time to keep sending them out. *I never
understood that.

* *I was very sad that when Flippy and I both had web sites with many
many stories and the search for a lost cat made the national media in
New Zealand they were told all about Flippy's page but not mine.

* *But nothing had quite prepared me for an unjustified attack because of
a little story about Nico or Nemo. *I shall post no more stories about
them: I shall read no more.

* *Of course this NG was also noticeably less friendly and supportive
than in the days when every second day there was a story by Dave
Yehudah, whom I had the privilege of meeting twice in Los Angeles, and
who has many stories on my Storypage. *If people want this NG to
continue I suggest you should discourage the nasty people, not encourage
them, and accept everyone has losses, but they do not justify rudeness.

* *Ok, Gandalf, Yowie, you have seen me off. *Good-bye.

--
David Stevenson * * * * * *Storypage:http://blakjak.org/sty_menu.htm
Liverpool, England, UK * * *Emails welcome
Nico: SI Vp B 0.6 Y++ L-- W C+++ I+++ T+ A+ E++ H S+ V+ F- Q P+ B+ PA PL- SC+
Nemo: SI Vp B 0.6 Y++ L-- W C+++ I+++ T *A+ E++ H S+ V+ F- Q P *B+ PA PL- SC+

hey dave sont let the door hit you on the way out asshole, i really
dont ****ing care about you crybaby,and one more thing GO ****YOURSELF
AND YOUR ****ING CATS

wrote in message
...



So, what a particular individual is willing to tolerate in their friends'
behavior is one thing. But I've noticed that in many groups, there are
just some people whose "jerkiness", for lack of a better word, is excused
more often than it is for others, just because they happen to be popular.
That offends my sense of fair play. I think everyone should be held to the
same expectations within the same social group.

If an individual is not popular in their peer group, whether at school or in
the workplace, their behaviour is always judged more harshly.
I don't like it either, Joyce.
I like your deep thinking. I think you missed your vocation, you might have
been a great social worker.
Tweed