Not OT, But Disturbing. Help me.

Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

They come from Carolina Biological Supply Company in Burlington, NC -
the only embalmed cat supplier in the US. They cost roughly 30-60
bucks a piece. They are purchased from Class B animal dealers (some
of whom obtain animals under false pretenses) and from pounds, alive,
and killed on-site. The veins and arteries are sometimes injected
with colored latex just after death. Carolina got busted for inhumane
killing of cats not too long ago but the case was thrown out of
court.

I have dissected these animals more than once - once in HS biology and
twice in college. It was a waste of time and not necessary. I did
not learn a thing that I couldn't have learned through the use of
models, simulations and software.

-L.

"Jo Firey" wrote in message
t...




No the cats aren't raised for this. Yes they are shelter cats that would
be euthanized in any case. Yes, an effort is made not to use cats that
are likely to be former pets.

They are preserved in formaldehyde.

And yes there is a great deal of value in this.

When I was is high school, in advanced biology, we dissected cats. One
cat for every two students. Most of the students in that class were
headed for pre-med and scientific college educations. The cats were
always treated with respect. We separated and labeled each and every
muscle and memorized its name. I really don't think there is any
substitute for dissection in learning anatomy.

My lab partner is now a respected surgeon.

Yes some of the students learned that they weren't cut out for medicine.
Better to learn it in twelfth grade that wait until you are in med school.

Jo



When I was at school, we dissected rats & locusts at age 14/15. The
dissection was a powerful learning tool. It really is much, much more
effective than from drawings in a book.

And as much as I am a cat lover; the local crazy cat lady, I have to ask
myself why should cats be 'different' than any other animal and not be used?
Surely that's down to personal preference and cultural mores. In some
countries, eating beef is unethical. In some, eating horsemeat? In some
places they eat dog. We are simply placing our own cultural standards &
ethics on a situation when in some other place it's our ethics which would
be seen as the wrong choice to make.

Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

I also find this _very_ disturbing. I hope the article brings an end to this
practice.
--
Adrian (Owned by Snoopy and Bagheera)
Cats leave pawprints on your heart.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

"Joy" wrote in message
...
"Sherry" wrote in message
oups.com...
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

I've never heard of that being done at a high school. That was one of the
projects for one of my daughter's college biology classes, however. They
obtained the already euthanized cats from the shelter. Frankly, I don't
know how she did it, because she's so much an animal lover she won't read
a book if she knows that anything bad happens to an animal in it. I guess
the fact that they were already dead, and would have been anyway, helped
her get through it. She was a biology major, so it made sense. I don't
like the idea of doing it in high school. When I took high school
biology, we dissected frogs - except that I was sick that day.

As much as it sucks, I am at least a little happy that the cat's death was
not *entirely* in vain. Just euthanising them because there is too many is
such a horrid and pointless waste. Finding at least *some* use for their
poor unwanted bodies is better (although not *alot* better, mind) than just
throwing the bodies in the trash, and would be cheaper than raising rats for
that specific purpose (as my highschool did). I'd also hazard a guess the
school pays a nominal fee for the bodies, which would also go back to the
shelter to help feed and vet the cats that do survive. It is also morally
superior (IMHO) than using lab rats: the cats would be euthanised anyway,
but unlike rats, were not raised for the specific purpose of vivesection.

Not an ideal solution of course, but means that the deaths are not just
totally pointless, as abhorrant as the thought is.

Yowie
(who had to cut up a rat in highschool biology, and a frog and a rat in
first year biology at University)

Jo Firey wrote:
its name. I really don't think there is any substitute for dissection in
learning anatomy.

Yes, there is: http://www.pcrm.org/resch/meded/mcw_doglab/

Victor, who does not believe animal life is more valuable than human life

In school I did crickets, frogs, and fetal pigs. Fetal pigs didn't
bother me because living on a pig farm I had to bury dead piglets all
the time, so I was used to handling them.

I don't think I could do a cat.

I'm biased as hell, I know it. I could eat pretty much anything else,
including dog or monkey, but I could not eat cat. I know this is
hypocritical.

If they're going to euthanize cats at a shelter anyway, they might as
well use the bodies for scientific purposes. In Ontario, shelter cats
are sometimes given to research instead of euthanized. Dylan once
worked in a lab and I think the hardest thing for him was seeing those
cats and then going home to ours and wondering why ours were "special"
and those ones "weren't". It was behind that lab that he found Kumani
and Tyche in the trashpile and we wonder, were they kittens of a lab
cat.

--Fil




I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

"Sherry" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 15, 12:00?am, mlbriggs wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:20:52 -0800, Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

Suggestion: write a letter to that newspapers Forum and raise the
question. MLB- Hide quoted text -

That's a good idea, except everybody already thinks I'm the crazy cat
lady and I hate to draw more of that kind of attention to myself. :-)
I thought about calling the science teacher though, and just asking
her about it. Just for my own information.

Sherry

You could just call the school and ask the teacher. I'm sure they would talk
to you.
Wow. All we did was frogs and I barely remember it. I'm not quite sure the
value of dissection in high school for the most part. Maybe in higher level
courses where it is clear the students are moving on to fields where it is
applicable.

"Victor Martinez" wrote in message
...
Jo Firey wrote:
its name. I really don't think there is any substitute for dissection in
learning anatomy.

Yes, there is: http://www.pcrm.org/resch/meded/mcw_doglab/


Definitely I think they should avoid live animal work whenever possible.
And it is amazing what can be done with computers that wasn't available back
in the stone age when I was in high school.

But working with an actual body, going carefully through the layers and
separating things and learning what they are and how they are connected gave
it an importance, maybe even a reverence that made what we learned stick.

There are situations where live animal work is a must.

You have seen off and on in the news the surgeon in Loma Linda that does
heart transplants on newborns. He uses donor hearts from newborns born with
fatal brain abnormalities to replace hearts in newborns that are also
fatally defective. I grew up with his wife so I've followed his career for
a long time.

Before he ever performed surgery on the first child he worked on the
procedure with dogs. They would work with two dogs at a time, trading the
hearts between them. Ideally you end up with two healthy alive dogs.

Yes its gruesome in a way, but it is also an invaluable learning tool.

Jo

"Jo Firey" wrote in message
t...

"Victor Martinez" wrote in message
...
Jo Firey wrote:
its name. I really don't think there is any substitute for dissection
in
learning anatomy.

Yes, there is: http://www.pcrm.org/resch/meded/mcw_doglab/


Definitely I think they should avoid live animal work whenever possible.
And it is amazing what can be done with computers that wasn't available
back
in the stone age when I was in high school.

But working with an actual body, going carefully through the layers and
separating things and learning what they are and how they are connected
gave
it an importance, maybe even a reverence that made what we learned stick.

There are situations where live animal work is a must.

You have seen off and on in the news the surgeon in Loma Linda that does
heart transplants on newborns. He uses donor hearts from newborns born
with
fatal brain abnormalities to replace hearts in newborns that are also
fatally defective. I grew up with his wife so I've followed his career
for
a long time.

Before he ever performed surgery on the first child he worked on the
procedure with dogs. They would work with two dogs at a time, trading the
hearts between them. Ideally you end up with two healthy alive dogs.

Yes its gruesome in a way, but it is also an invaluable learning tool.

Jo

Well, yeah, but an Oklahoma high school class? Like I said, I barely
remember my frog.

On Feb 15, 11:04�am, "Karen" wrote:
But working with an actual body, going carefully through the layers and
separating things and learning what they are and how they are connected
gave
it an importance, maybe even a reverence that made what we learned stick.

There are situations where live animal work is a must.

You have seen off and on in the news the surgeon in Loma Linda that does
heart transplants on newborns. *He uses donor hearts from newborns born
with
fatal brain abnormalities to replace hearts in newborns that are also
fatally defective. *I grew up with his wife so I've followed his career
for
a long time.

Before he ever performed surgery on the first child he worked on the
procedure with dogs. *They would work with two dogs at a time, trading the
hearts between them. *Ideally you end up with two healthy alive dogs.

Yes its gruesome in a way, but it is also an invaluable learning tool.

Jo

Well, yeah, but an Oklahoma high school class? Like I said, I barely
remember my frog.


Yes, I agree Karen. It's not like they are pre-med, or even serious
biology students. High School Biology I is a requirement, for cripe's
sake. They're not even there because they chose to be. I seriously
doubt *one* of them is going to have some epiphany from the experience
and become a surgeon, LOL. I don't remember anything that's ever been
useful from my frog either. All I remember about the experience is how
I disliked it. I would not have dissected a companion animal. NO way.
I 'd have taken a zero first. But that's just me, and I never had any
inclination toward a career in the sciences.

Sherry