Not OT, But Disturbing. Help me.

"Karen" wrote in message
...

Well, yeah, but an Oklahoma high school class? Like I said, I barely
remember my frog.


I seriously doubt this is in a required biology class. It is truly amazing
what advanced high school students are capable of.

Jo

On Feb 15, 1:10�pm, "Jo Firey" wrote:
"Karen" wrote in message

...



Well, yeah, but an Oklahoma high school class? Like I said, I barely
remember my frog.

I seriously doubt this is in a required biology class. *It is truly amazing
what advanced high school students are capable of.

Jo

I just posted, below Karen, (which I know you read) that it was second-
semester Biology I. In my day, this was required. I don't know about
now. I do know that newspapers make mistakes, and that could have been
one.
Jo, have I ever done/posted anything that has annoyed or upset you? I
can't help noticing the tone in your posts when you are replying to
me. I have also noticed that in the past, I've commented on your posts
about Kayla and you always seem to ignore them. I am kind of
bewildered by this. Then again, I don't expect everyone to like me or
like everything I post. That's okay. But I much prefer it be laid out
on the table.

Sherry

On Feb 15, 10:49 am, "Jo Firey" wrote:
Yes its gruesome in a way, but it is also an invaluable learning tool.

Harvard and Yale Medical Schools disagree.
Not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I don't believe killing
animals to learn how things work is ethical.

Victor

"Sherry" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 15, 1:10?pm, "Jo Firey" wrote:
"Karen" wrote in message

...



Well, yeah, but an Oklahoma high school class? Like I said, I barely
remember my frog.

I seriously doubt this is in a required biology class. It is truly amazing
what advanced high school students are capable of.

Jo

I just posted, below Karen, (which I know you read) that it was second-
semester Biology I. In my day, this was required. I don't know about
now. I do know that newspapers make mistakes, and that could have been
one.
Jo, have I ever done/posted anything that has annoyed or upset you? I
can't help noticing the tone in your posts when you are replying to
me. I have also noticed that in the past, I've commented on your posts
about Kayla and you always seem to ignore them. I am kind of
bewildered by this. Then again, I don't expect everyone to like me or
like everything I post. That's okay. But I much prefer it be laid out
on the table.


If I come across as annoyed or upset, a lot of the time I am. But not with
you. Just general life conditions.

So I apologize for my tone.

I know I don't always express myself well. If dissection of cats is
required for a basic required biology course I think they are way out of
line as well. And with the computer models that are available today it
hardly seems like something that is needed at all at the high school level.

Other considerations aside, you would think the school would have better
thing to spend the money on and to devote the facilities to. It is
expensive and messy and requires secure storage. I'd much rather see the
schools find the money for music and arts programs.

Jo

"pistor" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 15, 10:49 am, "Jo Firey" wrote:
Yes its gruesome in a way, but it is also an invaluable learning tool.

Harvard and Yale Medical Schools disagree.
Not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I don't believe killing
animals to learn how things work is ethical.

Victor

I agree with you for routine learning. Computers and models are good and
getting better.

I just don't think they would be enough for someone learning physically how
to transplant a heart in a infant. You would want to learn exactly what to
cut, what to suture, what not to miss, what to avoid. What type of sutures
worked best etc. How to complete the job quickly, etc.

After the first research and before the first babies were involved, there
had to be some intermediary steps to be sure it could work.

I was impressed that they made a point of doing the work in such a way that
the dogs lived.

When I first read about his work, it had some overtones of "mad scientist"
but I changed my mind when I saw the pictures of him staying up all night to
rock the babies when they were recovering from surgery.

Jo

I don't feel that dissecting animals is necessary unless it is part of
a subject directly related to medicine, veterinary science or surgery.
When at high school we watched our teacher dissect a rat and that was
it.

At university as part of my science degree I dissected a couple rats
and an earthworm. I would refuse to do that now, especially the rats.
The primary reason I left my previous job was because I was going to
be put into a position where I would need to kill the animals used for
these science classes at university.

Personally I felt participating or watching the dissections never
benefited my learning. I think the quality of the training and the
quality of the students would not be affected by the cessation of
dissecting animals in the undergraduate science units and at most
definitely at high school. Fortunately at my last university, no
students can be failed for refusing to dissect or even be present
during the dissection in your average biology or physiology class.

Like you, what these school students were allowed to do bothers me. I
guess I can take some small comfort that I seriously doubt cats or
dogs would be dissected at high school in Australia. There seems to be
a general move to minimise or eradicate all animal dissections at high
school. Most high school students aren't serious enough to benefit
from the dissection, and because of this it really it is a waste of
time. Heck, first year university students aren't even serious enough.

Dewi

On Feb 15, 4:22�pm, "Jo Firey" wrote:
If I come across as annoyed or upset, a lot of the time I am. *But not with
you. *Just general life conditions.

So I apologize for my tone.

Fair enough. You don't have to apologize. It's difficult to read tone
in a newsgroup conversation.

Thanks for replying, and to everyone else who replied. It's good to
get feedback on an issue like that. Not having children in school or
being familiar with the curriculum these days, I had no idea.

Sherry

"Jo Firey" wrote in
t:


"Sherry" wrote in message
oups.com...
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly
what I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get
them. Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I
wonder how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for
any catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?



No the cats aren't raised for this. Yes they are shelter cats that
would be euthanized in any case. Yes, an effort is made not to use
cats that are likely to be former pets.

They are preserved in formaldehyde.

And yes there is a great deal of value in this.

When I was is high school, in advanced biology, we dissected cats.
One cat for every two students. Most of the students in that class
were headed for pre-med and scientific college educations. The cats
were always treated with respect. We separated and labeled each and
every muscle and memorized its name. I really don't think there is
any substitute for dissection in learning anatomy.

My lab partner is now a respected surgeon.

Yes some of the students learned that they weren't cut out for
medicine. Better to learn it in twelfth grade that wait until you are
in med school.

Jo






I did this in 9th grade with two classmates (girls). It was offered as
extra credit and there was only 1 per class. Everyone else was doing
fetal pigs. We had to remove the brain and spinal cord to get an A+ for
the year. We came close enough to get the grade. The cat was in
formaldehyde. I appreciated the experience and the two girls
participated pretty well even though it was a bit rougher on them than
me. I had actually dissected a frog when I was in 4th grade. I did it
at home with my older brother because I loved science. I have a better
understanding of where the parts are today when I talk to the vet. This
was almost 40 years ago.

Andy

"Sherry" wrote in news:1171520797.351589.23080
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

On Feb 15, 12:00�am, mlbriggs wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:20:52 -0800, Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo
which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly
what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for
any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the
only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

Suggestion: *write a letter to that newspapers Forum and raise the
question. *MLB- Hide quoted text -

That's a good idea, except everybody already thinks I'm the crazy cat
lady and I hate to draw more of that kind of attention to myself. :-)
I thought about calling the science teacher though, and just asking
her about it. Just for my own information.

Sherry




There is not the slightest reason to raise cats for student dissection.
Do you know how much that would cost? Consider how many healthy cats are
euthenized every year. If anyone raises cats for medical research which
I guess they must it should be for very specific and I hope very rare
projects. When I did the dissection in 9th grade we three were very
respectful of what we were doing at the time. I guess we all wondered if
this cat had people at some time in its life.

Andy

On Feb 17, 6:58�pm, Outsider wrote:
"Sherry" wrote in news:1171520797.351589.23080
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:







On Feb 15, 12:00�am, mlbriggs wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:20:52 -0800, Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo
which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly
what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for
any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the
only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

Suggestion: *write a letter to that newspapers Forum and raise the
question. *MLB- Hide quoted text -

That's a good idea, except everybody already thinks I'm the crazy cat
lady and I hate to draw more of that kind of attention to myself. :-)
I thought about calling the science teacher though, and just asking
her about it. Just for my own information.

Sherry

There is not the slightest reason to raise cats for student dissection. *
Do you know how much that would cost? *Consider how many healthy cats are
euthenized every year. *If anyone raises cats for medical research which
I guess they must it should be for very specific and I hope very rare
projects. *When I did the dissection in 9th grade we three were very
respectful of what we were doing at the time. *I guess we all wondered if
this cat had people at some time in its life.

Andy

I still am mulling this over and have a done just a little research.
In my gut, I don't believe these are bodies that have been euthanized
at shelters. No way. The only twist to that story is, the cats *could*
possibly be sold to animal dealers *before* euthanasia.
Then we get into the question over how humanely the cats are treated
from there. There was a convtroversy years ago about how thousands of
cats were stolen in Mexico for shipment to US labs. Or the
allegations that Class B dealers stoop low enough to answer "free" ads
and steal strays.
Is this just urban myth? I don't know. I know you can't believe
everything you read on the web or the newspapers ... but there's an
awful lot of controversy shrouding Class B dealers.
And if *one cat* is abused or mistreated, or suffers just because a
high-school teacher doesn't have the guts to buck tradition or the
ability to adequately teach her grade level without using a cat, that
$50 of MY tax dollars where spent to purchase, there needs to be
change.

Sherry