Not OT, But Disturbing. Help me.

"Sherry" wrote in message
oups.com

I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.///

I actually have a serious problem with this. Our high school students
are lucky if they get to see a disection of A mouse or A rat, and even
then it has to be really justified before it goes ahead. The most they
may do in their final year of high school is a pig heart from the
slaughetr house. There is plenty of software out there that simulates
the real thing - I know because I use it at least 3 times a month.

Vet students at the Royal college of veterinary students are issued ONE
cat and ONE dog at the beginning of their 5 year course. They keep it
for the entire length of their university course. Those animals come
from the US in barrels of embalming fluid, and they *ARE* euthanaised
ex-shelter animals. Which I find very sad, but try to reconcile with the
fact that they are not dying in vain because their bodies are helping
the animal doctors of tomorrow.

As for high school students doing a disection of a cat though, no child
of mine would be allowed as I really don't see the benefit, and I'm
training to be a high school biology teacher!

Helen M


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Sherry" wrote in
ups.com:

On Feb 17, 6:58�pm, Outsider wrote:
"Sherry" wrote in news:1171520797.351589.23080
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:







On Feb 15, 12:00�am, mlbriggs wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:20:52 -0800, Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo
which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate
exactly
what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get
them. Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be
euthanized. I wonder how they're treated before/during
euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile
from this. I have to believe this is extremely
disturbing/traumatic for
any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the
only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a
frog, which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

Suggestion: *write a letter to that newspapers Forum and raise the
question. *MLB- Hide quoted text -

That's a good idea, except everybody already thinks I'm the crazy
cat lady and I hate to draw more of that kind of attention to
myself. :-) I thought about calling the science teacher though, and
just asking her about it. Just for my own information.

Sherry

There is not the slightest reason to raise cats for student
dissection.
*
Do you know how much that would cost? *Consider how many healthy cats
a
re
euthenized every year. *If anyone raises cats for medical research
which I guess they must it should be for very specific and I hope
very rare projects. *When I did the dissection in 9th grade we three
were very respectful of what we were doing at the time. *I guess we
all wondered
if
this cat had people at some time in its life.

Andy

I still am mulling this over and have a done just a little research.
In my gut, I don't believe these are bodies that have been euthanized
at shelters. No way. The only twist to that story is, the cats *could*
possibly be sold to animal dealers *before* euthanasia.
Then we get into the question over how humanely the cats are treated
from there. There was a convtroversy years ago about how thousands of
cats were stolen in Mexico for shipment to US labs. Or the
allegations that Class B dealers stoop low enough to answer "free" ads
and steal strays.
Is this just urban myth? I don't know. I know you can't believe
everything you read on the web or the newspapers ... but there's an
awful lot of controversy shrouding Class B dealers.
And if *one cat* is abused or mistreated, or suffers just because a
high-school teacher doesn't have the guts to buck tradition or the
ability to adequately teach her grade level without using a cat, that
$50 of MY tax dollars where spent to purchase, there needs to be
change.

Sherry





I don't know for sure where the animals come from either. Some others
here seemed pretty knowledgeable about it and don't paint a pretty image.
As for the dissection practice itself, my experience was almost 40 years
ago and a lot has changed since then so it is hard to judge. For me the
biggest problem is the attitude of the teaching agent. If a dissection
is done it needs to be done in an atmosphere of respect what ever the
creature. I hate to be the one to limit experience knowing how advanced
I was at that young age but the moral side of education seems, to me at
least, to be more of an issue today that the subject matter. And by the
way, the cat lady is a time honored figure in our society be one with
pride!


Andy

"Helen Miles" wrote in
news:0a0d35d85d4d17f0ee6a63fe187ae923.76411@mygate .mailgate.org:

"Sherry" wrote in message
oups.com

I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.///

I actually have a serious problem with this. Our high school students
are lucky if they get to see a disection of A mouse or A rat, and even
then it has to be really justified before it goes ahead. The most they
may do in their final year of high school is a pig heart from the
slaughetr house. There is plenty of software out there that simulates
the real thing - I know because I use it at least 3 times a month.

Vet students at the Royal college of veterinary students are issued ONE
cat and ONE dog at the beginning of their 5 year course. They keep it
for the entire length of their university course. Those animals come
from the US in barrels of embalming fluid, and they *ARE* euthanaised
ex-shelter animals. Which I find very sad, but try to reconcile with
the
fact that they are not dying in vain because their bodies are helping
the animal doctors of tomorrow.

As for high school students doing a disection of a cat though, no child
of mine would be allowed as I really don't see the benefit, and I'm
training to be a high school biology teacher!

Helen M



Having done this back in junior high school (back in the stone age) I
can't fully agree. I do feel I got value out of it. It WAS an elective
project and only a few of us more advanced students were allowed to even
do it AND at that time computer models did not exist so maybe things are
different today but I DID get value.

Andy

I'm not sure why the newspaper felt it necessary to run a story like that
with pictures no less. When I was 15 (I'm now 61) we disected a cows eye,
frog and fetal pig in biology class. Back then there weren't the
computerized help aides that are available today. Not sure I could have
handled a cat though. I don't see the value in this type of offering at the
high school level. My nephew is a Vet Tech, studing to be be a Vet and for
him the hands on training at the college level was invaluable. Medical
students work with cadavers and I'm grateful since I wouldn't want a surgeon
working on me who only used computer images to learn from. Likewise, if my
kitty needed surgery I would want my Vet to be very well trained.

I think what I'm hearing is how the animals are obtained. Any animal bred
purely for the purpose of killing it is sickening......likewise animals being
stolen and mistreated just to send to "labs" for profit is a travesty. As
much as it hurts me that any animal has to be euthanized because there's no
place for it to be loved and cared for......if it didn't give up it's fragile
life in vain, then to me it becomes a hero.



Sherry wrote:
I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.

I am completely outraged about this, but I can't separate exactly what
I'm outraged about. Who supplies the cats? How do *they* get them.
Maybe they are shelter cats who are going to be euthanized. I wonder
how they're treated before/during euthanasia.

I wonder if the students really even learn anything worthwhile from
this. I have to believe this is extremely disturbing/traumatic for any
catlovers in the class. I am not science-oriented. Other people
probably see this differently than I do. I wonder. I do know the only
thing I ever dissected in class was an earthworm and later a frog,
which I could barely stand to do even back then.

It just made me so sad to see the picture. Labs don't raise cats
strictly to sell to classrooms, do they?

Thanks for listening.

Sherry

--
Message posted via CatKB.com
http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...dotes/200702/1

On Feb 18, 4:40?am, "Helen Miles" wrote:
"Sherry" wrote in message

oups.com

I just read an article in the local paper (complete with a photo which
horrified me)...about the little high school biology class's
dissection project, each student dissected a cat.///

I actually have a serious problem with this. Our high school students
are lucky if they get to see a disection of A mouse or A rat, and even
then it has to be really justified before it goes ahead. The most they
may do in their final year of high school is a pig heart from the
slaughetr house. There is plenty of software out there that simulates
the real thing - I know because I use it at least 3 times a month.

Vet students at the Royal college of veterinary students are issued ONE
cat and ONE dog at the beginning of their 5 year course. They keep it
for the entire length of their university course. Those animals come
from the US in barrels of embalming fluid, and they *ARE* euthanaised
ex-shelter animals. Which I find very sad, but try to reconcile with the
fact that they are not dying in vain because their bodies are helping
the animal doctors of tomorrow.

As for high school students doing a disection of a cat though, no child
of mine would be allowed as I really don't see the benefit, and I'm
training to be a high school biology teacher!

Helen M

Thanks for the info., Helen. You make a very valid point about the
poor bodies helping tomorrow's cats. Forgive me for dragging this out;
I know other people are probably sick of hearing about it.
But I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around shelter-euthanized
animals going to labs. I'm sure the labs don't want diseased cats. And
I'm sure some kind of preparation must be made before the cats are
preserved. So the staff must be trained as to preparation. Are those
shelters who supply Class B dealers themselves?
Those issues are why I couldn't imagine already-euthanized shelter
animals going to labs. I admit my world is pretty small (and getting
smaller!!) /And again, I'm not trying to stir controversy, and I have
NO problem with dissection if the students are at least ON THE WAY to
that kind of career.
It's a "where do they come from, how are they euth'd, how much do they
suffer" for the sake of science. And could THAT be improved.
I called the school, and was promised the science teacher would return
my call when she was not in class. She never did.
Sigh. I promise I'll stop whining about this soon.

Sherry

On Feb 18, 6:38?am, "Mommy of 2 via CatKB.com" u26651@uwe wrote:
I think what I'm hearing is how the animals are obtained.
snipped

Oh, exactly so. Very much more than the practice itself. I do question
the youth & level of the students. I would not question that at all if
they were older and doing coursework toward their chosen career.
Plus, it *is* my tax dollars being spent! Our schools have been crying
about budget lately and always threaten to cut band/music funding.
This burns me up also, and the fact that sophomores are being provided
expensive lab animals kind of fuels that too. I guess the whole thing
disburbs me on a whole bunch of different levels.

Sherry

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:38:49 GMT, "Jo Firey"
wrote:


"pistor" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Feb 15, 10:49 am, "Jo Firey" wrote:
Yes its gruesome in a way, but it is also an invaluable learning tool.

Harvard and Yale Medical Schools disagree.
Not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I don't believe killing
animals to learn how things work is ethical.

Victor

I agree with you for routine learning. Computers and models are good and
getting better.

I just don't think they would be enough for someone learning physically how
to transplant a heart in a infant. You would want to learn exactly what to
cut, what to suture, what not to miss, what to avoid. What type of sutures
worked best etc. How to complete the job quickly, etc.

After the first research and before the first babies were involved, there
had to be some intermediary steps to be sure it could work.

I was impressed that they made a point of doing the work in such a way that
the dogs lived.

When I first read about his work, it had some overtones of "mad scientist"
but I changed my mind when I saw the pictures of him staying up all night to
rock the babies when they were recovering from surgery.

Jo


When I was a freshman in college, I helped repair a human skeleton
which had been stolen from a biology lab and taken to a party, then
returned with several of the connecting wires broken and a few finger
bones missing. I strung the bones back together, and even (at my
teacher's request) made a few faux bones from clay, fired them in a
pottery kiln, then used them to substitute for the missing fingers.

(In case you are wondering, I wasn't involved with the theft, but was
taking a pottery-making class at the time).

Some of my friends were horrified at the idea of my working with human
remains, and one even asked me, "Wasn't I afraid I would be haunted by
the ghost?". However, I was fascinated by learning just how complex
the bone structure of the human hand and wrist is, and didn't
encounter any ghostly visitations.

I ended up as a computer programmer, not a doctor or biologist, but I
am glad I had the experience.

--
John F. Eldredge --
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria