Trap, Neuter, and Release: Bad for Cats, Disaster for Birds (HD)

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:52:26 GMT from Phil P. :
Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
suffering animal.

And you think they're not suffering in a crowded kennel with other
animals, some of them sick and all of them anxious and upset?

Yes. I don't think they're suffering in a crowed kennel with other animals.
We don't keep our feral colonies in kennels and I've never heard of a TNR
group that does. The only time our ferals see a cage is when they're
trapped for neutering and return or medical care. The only thing our colony
cats get anxious and upset about is when I'm late feeding them.




Do you
think a battery chicken is better off continuing that life or being
given a painless death?

We're talking about *feral cats*, Stan.

"chatnoir" wrote in message
...

I found articles where there were other references

Good for you. Now learn how to analyze a study before you blindly parrot
that which you don't understand and make a fool of yourself.

"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 12:49 AM):
"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
"chatnoir" wrote in message


...
http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
So what is the answer?

TNR




Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
individuals.

I'm surprised at you. I thought you had more sense than that. Ferals in
well managed colonies live long and happy & healthy lives. I have 300
cats
in 16 colonies to prove it. And that's just my colonies.



I admit, I know nothing about colonies, but my understanding was that
they're suffering the same population explosion as the shelters, etc, as
more and more people are dumping their cats at handy colonies. I'm not
sure how that many cats living in close proximity can stay healthy. I'd
think one person dumping their cat because it was sick could devastate a
colony. I'd be happy to be wrong though.


Colony cats don't live in close proximity. They're not fenced in. They
expand their territory as necessary. Some cats do form close groups and hang
out together.

"calvin" wrote in message
...
On Aug 16, 8:52 am, "Phil P." wrote:
...
Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....

http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm

Very interesting looking. If you have described your colony
before, here or elsewhere, please post a link. I'm curious
about the boundary. How do you keep the colony cats in
and the unspayed/unneutered cats out?

The colonies are managed. New cats are immediately trapped, examined and
treated if neccessary and neutered if necessary.


Also, the picture
looks like an ordinary neighborhood street. Are there human
neighbors living within this colony?

That colony is in the back of an industrial park.

On Aug 16, 11:16*pm, "Phil P." wrote:
"chatnoir" wrote in message

...

I found articles where there were other references

Good for you. Now learn how to analyze a study before you blindly parrot
that which you don't understand and make a fool of yourself.

I did not blindly parrot anything! Your on the wrong track here!

On Aug 16, 11:16*pm, "Phil P." wrote:
"chatnoir" wrote in message

...
On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." wrote:





"chatnoir" wrote in message

....

http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
"studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
"Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
say.

Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
apart:

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html...sin_study.html

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html..._reviewed.html

There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html

DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT

Carol A. Fiore and Karen Brown Sullivan

2000

---------------------------------------------------------------------------*-
----

ABSTRACT

To quantify the effects of urban domestic cat predation on birds in
Wichita, Kansas, a city of approximately 300,000 residents, we
collected birds killed by study cats, analyzed fecal material, and
tracked cats using radio collars to estimate mean numbers of birds
killed per cat. A random survey and information from local
veterinarians were used to calculate pet cat density.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Another bull**** "study" with shoddy methodology. *These bimbos used the
same shoddy methodology as Temple & Coleman and Churcher & Lawton. They
based their guesstimated numbers of birds killed by cats on the number of
cats in an area estimated by local vets. Of that total guesstimated number
of cats, many are indoor cats, some cats are too old to hunt, some cats are
too young to hunt and some cats just don't hunt birds. IOW, the authors took
the number kills from a small group of cats and multiplied it by the total
number of cats in the area. But the bird groups, especially ABC, eagerly
accept and fund these bogus "studies" because they supports their agenda.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You have design and ran a study???? You do work with numbers you can
manage!

Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/17/2009 2:16 AM):
"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, Phil P. exclaimed (8/16/2009 8:52 AM):
"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 2:43 PM):
"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (8/15/2009 1:59 AM):
"chatnoir" wrote in message

...
http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds
So what is the answer?
Sadly, the only answer currently is humane euthanasia for unadoptable
individuals. It is a hard decision, but shelters are so very
overloaded,
I think it's the only humane thing we can do until the human
population
can be better educated to spay, neuter, and not breed cats
indiscriminately.

I know this is an unpopular thought, and I hate the necessity, but
there
truly isn't anything else that can be done currently.

Euthanize rather than TNR? Not even.


Actually, along with. Euthanasia,
Its not euthanasia- its killing. Euthanasia is ending the life of a
suffering animal.


I think, is probably a better death
than dying of old age and/or sickness in an overpopulated colony.
What's a better than dying of old age??? That's how I want to go! I
think
you need to do a lot more research because you're clearly misinformed.
Feral
cats in well managed colonies live long, healthy and happy lives.

Look how much the cats in my colony are suffering.....

http://maxshouse.com/on_the_prowl.htm



I know it's not a popular opinion. I hate that it's necessary, but I'm
a realist.
A realist, huh? You're suggesting killing 100 million feral cats.


Not really, I'm talking about unadoptable pets in shelters,


No you weren't. You were specifically referring to feral colonies. You said:
"I think, is probably a better death than dying of old age and/or sickness
in an overpopulated colony."




Yea, in other parts I wasn't, but did you miss the post where I
retracted this because I obviously don't know as much as I thought about
colonies? You responded to everything else...

jmc

On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:35:33 GMT, "Phil P."
wrote:


"chatnoir" wrote in message
...
On Aug 15, 9:49 pm, "Phil P." wrote:
"chatnoir" wrote in message

...

http://www.youtube.com/abcbirds

Pure bull****. The entire video is based on fraudulent and manipulated
"studies" by Temple & Coleman. Temple & Coleman were interviewed in 1994
and asked to substantiate their figures. When cornered, they admitted "
"Those figures were from our proposal. They aren't actual data; that was
just our projection to show how bad it might be." IOW, their estimates of
cat kill were nothing more than guesses. Yet the bird groups- especially
ABC, cite these quacks' papers as though they were scientific studies that
have undergone the peer-review process- which they have not. What's even
more ridiculous, is that practically all the "studies" Temple & Coleman's
cite in their bull**** "papers" are their *own* guesstimated "studies".
That's exactly the same as using yourself as a reference! But that doesn't
bother the bird groups as long as the papers say what they want them to
say.

Here are a couple of good reads that pick Temple & Coleman's "studies"
apart:

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html...sin_study.html

http://www.straypetadvocacy.org/html..._reviewed.html

There are other studies from sources non-biased such as the Spray Pet
Advocay, that indicates bird predation by cats is serious!:

http://www.geocities.com/the_srco/Article.html

DOMESTIC CAT (Felis catus ) PREDATION OF BIRDS IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT

That's not a scientic, peer-reviewed study, Einstein- its just a paper. The
author used 3 of Temple & Coleman's bull**** papers for their guesstimated
guesstimates of statistics. The authors have no credibility.

Hey! Look at the upside- Cats are improving the avian species by removing
slow and stupid birds from the gene pool. lol!




Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
one got nailed over the weekend. They are likely the slower, older,
and stupider birds.

On the other hand, I put out maybe 400 pounds of birdseed over each
winter. I also have a heated birdbath. It's great to watch the birds
taking a bath in February.

And while I try to avoid it, sometimes the cats are out while there is
birdseed in the feeders. Very rarely does a bird get killed even then.
They aren't that stupid. It's pretty funny watching Espy trying to
hide under an Azalea that has no leaves.

The main cause of loss of wildlife is us. There are too many people on
the earth and we're destroying the habitat of all other creatures.
Unless people are willing to enforce the China policy of one child per
family, shut the **** up about cats killing birds. "Be Fruitfull And
Multiply" is the cause of the death of birds. I suggest banning stupid
religions.

On Aug 18, 10:34*am, dgk wrote:
Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
one got nailed over the weekend. ...

With my cats, it has always been when they were young
that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
stalk these creatures has declined considerably.

Suddenly, without warning, calvin exclaimed (8/18/2009 10:42 AM):
On Aug 18, 10:34 am, dgk wrote:
Actually I was thinking that. My cats do kill some birds each year -
one got nailed over the weekend. ...

With my cats, it has always been when they were young
that they caught birds, and even (amazingly) a few squirrels.
After age two or so, if I remember correctly, their urge to
stalk these creatures has declined considerably.

Lol, the birds around here have Meep's number, for sure. Due to issues
with her hind legs, she can't really jump. Birds have figured this out,
and will feed - albeit nervously - even with her right below the feeder,
a mere 4' from their feet.

Even the hummer was chasing honeybees while completely ignoring the
sleek black predator stretched out below, watching her.

In a past location, some birds would even walk up to our glass doors to
harass Meep through the glass, and had even been known to chase her inside.

Not all cats are Dangerous Hunters

jmc