Outdoor cat poisoning - report back

"Mathew Kagis" wrote in message
news:JiB4e.3097$jR3.397@edtnps84...

I know what anthropomorphism is. & it's just as valid to turn that back
on
you, my dear.

How so, darlin' man?

As much as we have domesicated cats, deep in their limbic
brains they are still meat eating predators.... So, does it make them
happier to play with stuffed toys on a carpet or do what several thousand
years of instinct are pushing them to do... go outside & hunt?

Why yes, dear, it does. The stuffed toys are filled with catnip and not
with rat poison, they have no idea what a *real* rat even looks like and
can't possibly know what they're missing. Being healthy is a happier state
to be in than being injured or sick, I can tell you that from personal
experience, I don't have to anthropomorphize - health is health and pain is
pain no matter what the species.

As they
can't write or talk, we may never know... But I can tell you how
fascinated
& happy Chablis SEEMS to me when she's brought home a kill & so far she's
been eating them... Following her genetic programming, I'd call that as
close to happy as we can define.

Well if following her genetic programming causes her to eat rat poison or
run in front of a car while chasing the rat, um, I can't tell you whether
being dead is a happier state than being alive, but I'm suspecting it isn't.

You are right, CN, your cats are safer than mine. I once read a very
funny book entitled '**** YES' by Dr. Wing Foo Fing (penname for Tom
Robbins). It compared safety & sanity in one chapter... It suggested that
the two are mutually exclusive. You can be safe OR you can be sane &
accept
that life will kick the living sh&@ out of you at every oppurtunity....
Hmmmm....

Oh dear, I'd better be on the lookout for those little mice knocking on my
door with their white coats looking to take my kitties off to the funny
farm!!

As for myself, well during all those endless corporate touchy-feely
personality/team building tests I've come out as a high risk-taker so I
guess I'm pretty sane then. The difference is I have the intellect to weigh
the risks I take, my cats don't.


SNIP


You and others here claim that these abcesses and other illnesses and
injuries are easily treated, but each time a cat has to fight off disease
or
infection they're not only diminishing their overall health they are
taking
time off their lifespan, and, getting back to the "happier" theme, how
happy
can an injured or ill cat be really?

Id argue that one, I've studied herbal medecine 92 years under a master
herbalist) & spent 2 years on Ski Patrol, doing emergency trauma stuff.
Reasearch points to a need to expose humans to various pathogens to
stimulate immune response. Doctors are finding too many children with
weak
immune systems, because kids don't get 'old fashioned dirty' any more.
Chabils has some immune issues, her first abcess occured way before I
started letting her outside, no Idea what she cut herself on, probably the
edge of a peice of furniture or something...? Anyway, she's now on
Astragulus to boost her immune efficiency. How can your cat rejoice in
feeling healthy if it never knows what feeling lousy is all about?

Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at them
because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are healthier and
heartier than ever before in our history.

Once I teach Chablis how to type, I'll have her contact you & you can
compare notes.

Luv ya back!
Right Back at you CN.

Oooo. The lurve is getting *thick* in here!!! ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

"Mary" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
...

You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that
demonize
or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the
dim-witted.

Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
instead
of rhetoric - my bad!


Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
the assholes that they are.

LOL, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm from New Orleans and was
raised by a true Southern Belle. The madder we get, the quieter we get
and
the more we start using endearments. When I heard my mother whisper,
"Darlin' girl, get your sweet self over here and let your momma look at
your
precious face, angel!", I knew I was in a *world* of sh*t! ;

In polite Southern society it would never do to point out someone's bad
manners or other faults - it's like you would treat a puppy who runs into
a
room full of guests, wagging his tail, and then poops on the rug. A
Southern lady would not only pretend it hadn't happened, she would make
every guest *believe* it never happened!

It's usually not necessary to point out when someone is showing their
ignorance, most of the time all you have to do is stand back and let them
make a fool of *themselves*! But I'm finding out that that's not always
the
case on usenet. Oh well, as my mother says, it takes all kinds!

Hugs,

CatNipped



LOL! You can tell I was not raised in the south. I love this
characterization, great job. Ever think about writing about your
southern upbringing? Some of my favorite writers are southern
women.
Ever

Honey chile, we couldn't give away our secrets like that, why I could be
banned from Southern Belle society just for telling you the little I did!
;

Hugs,

CatNipped

kaeli wrote in
:

It comes back to how I feel about my own cats and myself. If I let my
cat out and she got hit, I'd blame myself. No different for anyone
else. Except I know how guilty I'd feel, so I'd feel sorry for the
other person, too.


I'd blame myself too. As would a parent with an old-enough-to-be-out
child. They're our dependents, we're supposed to keep them safe. But to
keep them 100% safe means that they would be deprived of some pretty
significant experiences. Keeping them safe is only one part of what we
are supposed to do, IMO.

My dogs would be safer if they didn't go outside too. Even on leashes.
But man, would they be miserable. (Yes, I would be able to tell.) As pet
owners, we are always balancing the wish to keep them safe with the wish
to provide them as fulfilling a life as possible. For different cats,
that may well mean different decisions. As I have said, I personally
would be happier if the cat never wanted to go out; I have known cats who
are this way, but Rosalie does like to go out. (Yes, I can tell.)

--
Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie
& Rosalie the calico

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...

SNIP

Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at
them
because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are healthier and
heartier than ever before in our history.

Extensive studies on immune deficiency can be found at:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/

http://www.thelancet.com/

These are the 2 major medical publications in the western world...

I feel the love CN.

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

"ceb" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote in
:

I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned,
repeatedly, that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT*
listen to those warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those
warnings should be ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how
they lost their cat (usually giving the rest of us gratuitous and
graphic descriptions of how mangled the cat was when it was found). I
would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to suffer and die because her
person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or just plain too lazy,
to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding environment for
their cat.


What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree. That
doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.

No, of course it doesn't. What makes a person irresponsible, thick-headed
and lazy is when sometging has been shown to them to cause harm to someone
they love, but they do it anyway because it's convenient.

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

"ceb" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote in
:

how wracked with guilt I would be if it were something I could have
prevented from happening just be taking the extra time and effort to
keep them inside.


How does it take extra time and effort to keep them inside? I found that
having an inside-only cat was much easier than letting the cat out,
opening
and closing doors, keeping an eye on things, etc etc. Not that either
scenario is terribly hard. I just fail to see how letting the cat out
sometimes means that I'm expending less time and effort with respect to my
cat.

Having to interact and play with them for hours every day, e.g. making sure
they get enough exercise to stay healthy - *NOT* just throwing toys down on
the floor and hoping they'll play with them but actually putting forth
physical effort to keep them entertained enough to get the exercise they
need. Cleaning litterboxes twice a day.

Most people I know who have indoor/outdoor cats don't even open and close
doors for their cats, they get a pet door so they don't have to get off
their lazy.... sorry.

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

"CatNipped" wrote in
:

"ceb" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote in
:

Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much
happier she is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then
please ask her to call and tell me how much happier she is by
getting to go outside. What's that? She can't speak either? Then
please, pray tell, how do you know that she is happier than if she
were to stay inside? How has she told you that she understands, has
weighed, and accepts the risks of going outside.


Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out. On nice days she
cries extra. She flies out the door when I open it for her. She stays
out for a while sometimes and is clearly enjoying herself.

Gee, when my kids were toddlers they cried for candy and didn't want
to eat their vegetables. Eating candy, they clearly enjoyed
themselves. Silly me worrying about their nutrition and their health
when I should have been giving them what they cried for so they could
be happy.

Candy AND vegetables are both important.


When they were youngsters they cried that they didn't want to go to
school. They clearly enjoyed staying home and playing instead. How
cruel of me to *force* them to go, I made them terribly unhappy by
doing so.

Playing AND going to school are both important.


When they were teenagers they whined and complained about not being
able to stay out late or smoke or drink or do drugs - that's what they
*wanted* to do, that's what would have made them *happy*!!

Partying AND sleeping are both important.


It's such a shame that they turned out to be such happy, healthy
(never been sick a day in their lives, never had a cavity), productive
adults with happy families and good careers. I just didn't have
anybody to tell me how wrong I was to make them so unhappy!

I am not advocating letting the cat do whatever she wants, whenever she wants (as I
mentioned in the paragraph below). I am advocating something more like "yes, you can
have candy sometimes; you can play sometimes; you can party sometimes."


Now, I wouldn't let her do whatever she wants just because she cries.
After Madeline's surgery, she cried at the door A LOT and I didn't
let her out because she was still recovering.

Rosalie lived the first 3 years of her life outside.

Nickleby was indoor-only and was a very happy cat.

I am not saying anything about the decisions you make for your cats.
I don't really see this as a moral issue about which there is a right
and a wrong. All along I have just been trying to explain that it is
possible to *adore* one's cats and make a different decision about
the whole indoor/outdoor question. You seem to disagree.

Yes I disagree, simply because I would never knowingly put someone I
love in harm's way. when you love someone you do what's *best* for
them, not simply what makes them happy. I wouldn't let my toddlers
*or* my cats play in traffic!

Sometimes what's best for us IS doing what makes us happy. That's actually true a lot,
IMO.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...

Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
Megan,
Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long
time,
since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a
guestimate
of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",

*snickers*
Love the typo.

Yeah, I caught that too after I hit send - although it does apply as is when
you consider cat fights are even more common than car hits.

or
"Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
Ten,
twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?


Even if there were 30, it wouldn't really prove much.
Considering there are millions of pet cats out there and all.

Well yes, but all those millions of owners don't post here. I'm just
talking a percentage of the people who post here and then again a percentage
of those who allow their cats outside.

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
--
~kaeli~
A man's home is his castle..., in a manor of speaking.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

"Mathew Kagis" wrote in message
news:HLB4e.62$yV3.49@clgrps12...



"CatNipped" wrote in message
...

SNIP

Can you cite me those studies please? I'd be interested in looking at
them
because everything I've ever read claims that kids today are healthier
and
heartier than ever before in our history.

Extensive studies on immune deficiency can be found at:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/

http://www.thelancet.com/

These are the 2 major medical publications in the western world...

Thanks for the links, I'll have to look into those after work - should be
interesting!

I feel the love CN.

Don't you just, though!!! ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
"Ashley" wrote:

What Phil did was post a selective list of vets he agrees who back up his
world view (but I noted that one of them simply said that cats will
readily
fit into the human family, and he somehow took this as meaning they took
readily to indoor life or something.

Which is exactly what you did by posting the Web site you did.

No, actually, that web site give the pros and cons of *both* approaches.
It's called balance.