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Indoor cat..quality of life?



 
 
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  #101  
Old September 8th 04, 12:11 AM
Steve G
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"Phil P." wrote in message ...
"Steve G" wrote in message
om...

(...)

no reliable statistics that detail the longevity of indoor and outdoor
cats.



Sure there are! There have been several major studies spanning almost 50
years, conducted in different parts of the country, published in
peer-reviewed veterinary medical and behavior journals and texts,

(...)

Feel free toprovide a cite to prove me wrong though...


"A cite"? How about three?


Before I deal with (two of) these, bear in mind the issue at hand, re.
my statement '[there are] no reliable statistics that detail the
longevity of indoor and outdoor cats.'

And now, to the grindstone:


Kolata RJ, Kraut NH, Johnston DE,
Patterns of trauma in urban dogs and cats: a study of 1,000
cases. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1974 Mar 1;164(5):499-502


Precis: Kolata et al. categorised the injuries sustained to 1000
dogs+cats (129 cats, 871 dogs) admitted to the University of
Pennsylvania Vet Hospital, during a one year period. (There were 7,803
admissions during the period studied, of which 1,000 were admissions
due to trauma).

First point - the authors make *no statement whatsoever about the
relative longevities of indoor versus outdoor cats*, and provide *no
data whotsoever concerning the overall risk of trauma in outdoor
cats*. They cannot (could not) do so because they cite no statistics
on the number of cats *not* taken to the vet hospital (i.e., baseline
cat ownership data). The data they supply simply provide an aetiology
of traumatic events.

Note also that cats were relatively under-represented (cf. dogs) in
traumatic events, although this difference was not tested
statistically. Also, of the 129 cats considered, ZERO were damaged by
a weapon, and 1 showed evidence of abuse. Falls, vehicles and other
animals accounted for nearly half of the traumatic events. Of the
injured animals, approximately one in six died from their injuries.
The animals admitted tended to be young (median 1.3ys for the cats).

This is all moderately interesting, but without a knowledge of the
proportion of cats actually admitted, we simply do not know the
proportionate risk of injury for the indoor-outdoor cat. We might
reasonably suggest that young animals are disproportionately at risk.


Childs JE, Ross L,
Urban cats: characteristics and estimation of mortality due to motor
vehicles. Am J Vet Res 1986 Jul;47(7):1643-8)


The Childs et al. study is very similar to that of Kolata et al.,
except that the former took place within the city limits of Baltimore,
with the number of dead cats collected by animal control being logged
over a 3-year period.

Of the dead cats, the authors estimate that c. 20% were once owned
(although they had no way of knowing if these cats were lost, or
whether their owners had turned them out onto the streets on purpose).
90% of the cats were not neutered.

The authors do provide a rather crude (as they themselves admit)
guesstimate of the mortality probability in owned, free-ranging cats.
The figure they suggest is 8.7% (this implies a mortality probability
of less than 1% of neutered, owned cats).

Once again, note that the paper provides no clear data on the
longevity of indoor versus outdoor cats.

To add some non-UScentric data, Rochlitz (2003a,b; Vet Rec 153:
549-553, 585-588) did more of the same, albeit in the UK, and with
more sophisticated methodology.

In the studies, it was found that age was by far the best predictor of
RTA injury, with gender and pedigree status following close behind.
Basically, young, male, non-pedigree cats were at greatest risk
(proportionately - these statistics take into account the a priori
probabilities of being in each respective category).

Note that better than 40% of the owned cats surveyed were 10 years of
age or older. Hardly seems that the cats were kicking the bucket at
the 3-5 years the indoor-advocates often suggest. Indeed, the median
age of surveyed, owned cats was 7 years. I wonder how this compares to
the US?

And some grist for the mill on the purebred debate (Rochlitz 2003a,
pp. 552). Regarding why pedigree cats are relatively underrepresented
in RTA statistics:

'Pedigree cats may have behavioural characteristics that reduce their
risk of being in a road accident. (...) Turner (2000) found that their
owners interacted for longer periods with the pedigree cats , and that
the pedigree cats spent more time close to their owners.'

Just for fun, y'understand.


Keep in mind, urbanization with more people living in cities with their
cats, and the number of motor vehicles have increased dramatically since
1956, 1974, and 1986. Therefore, these studies grossly underestimate the
current mortality rate and overestimate the life expectancy of outdoor cats
in the 21st century --- and they will only get *worse*.


Lest you think I'm dismissing RTAs entirely, I absolutely accept that
road traffic is a risk for outdoor-access cats, and this risk may well
be too great to justify outdoor-access in some areas.



"Free ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in the
general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an average
lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20 years "
Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D.


And does Karen L. Overall have a cite for this contention, or is it
just bit of airy handwaving? Does she speak of owned, indoor-outdoor
cats? Does she include strays in her 'statistic'?


Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behavior

Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine University of
Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, In: Epidemiology; Chap 2, pg 5,
Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals; 1997, Mosby ISBN
0-8016-6820-4. (Dr. Overall's statement is also supported by the above
cited studies)


It absolutely is *not*. I suggest you read the papers before making
contentions that are not supported by them. Neither of the papers
above provide any estimates of lifespan, and the data could not
support such estimates. The only way you could extract that 3-5year
'statistic' would involve smoke, mirrors, and sacrificing a goat or
three.



"The average lifespan of an indoor cat is around twelve to fourteen years,
.while outdoor cats are lucky to reach double digits."
(Excerpted from The Cat Who Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New
York).


That's ****in' scientific, too. Any cites, Mr Dodman?


(...)

Q.E.D.


Not if one actually reads the papers cited. I suggest you try it.

Steve.
  #104  
Old September 8th 04, 12:22 AM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message ...
"Alison" wrote in message
...

(...)

No need to apologize for your opinions. I notice that Steve did not
answer my question, meaning of course that Steve,


....does not live with a permanent Usenet link thru' his spine.

Patience!

who does
indeed live in Chapel Hill (near where I live) allows his cats
to roam.


You may assume what you like. I shall make no statements one way or
the other regarding my cats. It's much more amusing to watch people
project, and you do it so vehemently. It's quaint, almost.


Well, they're his cats, but, once again, I don't want
to hear about it when one of them gets hit by a car, ripped
open by a dog, or poisoned by an insane neighbor.


Which car, which dog, which neighbour?

(...)

Whatever. Steve lives in the US in an urban area. That's what
worries me.


Again, you make assumptions based on minimal data.

Incidentally, of the cats I am familiar with here, the majority do
indeed have outdoor access. My neighbours cat previous cat lived to
c.20 years old with free access to the Great Outdoors.

(...)

Anyone who has to be warned that allowing their cats to roam
means opening them up to ANYTHING that comes their way


A truism. Outdoor access cats are exposed to the outdoors.

are truly and irrevokably stupid. You love them or you don't.
You keep them safe or you don't. It's your choice.


A life in black and white, indeed. However, most of us think in full
colour and nuance.

(...)

What really upsets me is seeing posts on forums from people who
react to their cats natural behaviour like scratching and jumping on
surfaces by shouting at them , spraying them with water and/or
vinegar, throwing things at them , picking them up and shaking them,
hissing in their faces tapping their noses, using shock/IV collars
on them and matter of factly talking about disciplining them and
finding these methods totally acceptable without even bothering to
find or use kinder and better ways.


So let's see. It's okay to allow them out and unprotected, but not
to yell at them. Interesting.


Or to: squirt them, hit them, shake 'em, shock 'em,...?

Steve.
  #105  
Old September 8th 04, 12:22 AM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mary" wrote in message ...
"Alison" wrote in message
...

(...)

No need to apologize for your opinions. I notice that Steve did not
answer my question, meaning of course that Steve,


....does not live with a permanent Usenet link thru' his spine.

Patience!

who does
indeed live in Chapel Hill (near where I live) allows his cats
to roam.


You may assume what you like. I shall make no statements one way or
the other regarding my cats. It's much more amusing to watch people
project, and you do it so vehemently. It's quaint, almost.


Well, they're his cats, but, once again, I don't want
to hear about it when one of them gets hit by a car, ripped
open by a dog, or poisoned by an insane neighbor.


Which car, which dog, which neighbour?

(...)

Whatever. Steve lives in the US in an urban area. That's what
worries me.


Again, you make assumptions based on minimal data.

Incidentally, of the cats I am familiar with here, the majority do
indeed have outdoor access. My neighbours cat previous cat lived to
c.20 years old with free access to the Great Outdoors.

(...)

Anyone who has to be warned that allowing their cats to roam
means opening them up to ANYTHING that comes their way


A truism. Outdoor access cats are exposed to the outdoors.

are truly and irrevokably stupid. You love them or you don't.
You keep them safe or you don't. It's your choice.


A life in black and white, indeed. However, most of us think in full
colour and nuance.

(...)

What really upsets me is seeing posts on forums from people who
react to their cats natural behaviour like scratching and jumping on
surfaces by shouting at them , spraying them with water and/or
vinegar, throwing things at them , picking them up and shaking them,
hissing in their faces tapping their noses, using shock/IV collars
on them and matter of factly talking about disciplining them and
finding these methods totally acceptable without even bothering to
find or use kinder and better ways.


So let's see. It's okay to allow them out and unprotected, but not
to yell at them. Interesting.


Or to: squirt them, hit them, shake 'em, shock 'em,...?

Steve.
  #106  
Old September 8th 04, 12:50 AM
Mary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steve G" wrote:

who does
indeed live in Chapel Hill (near where I live) allows his cats
to roam.


You may assume what you like. I shall make no statements one way or the

other regarding my cats. It's much more amusing to watch people project, and
you do it so vehemently. It's quaint, almost.

I thought so. They're your cats. It's your decision and you
will live with the consequences.


Well, they're his cats, but, once again, I don't want
to hear about it when one of them gets hit by a car, ripped
open by a dog, or poisoned by an insane neighbor.


Which car, which dog, which neighbour?


Does it matter?

(...)

Whatever. Steve lives in the US in an urban area. That's what
worries me.


Again, you make assumptions based on minimal data.

Incidentally, of the cats I am familiar with here, the majority do indeed

have outdoor access. My neighbours cat previous cat lived to c.20 years old
with free access to the Great Outdoors.

Your neighbor was a gambler, and it looks like you are too.


(...)

Anyone who has to be warned that allowing their cats to roam means

opening them up to ANYTHING that comes their way

A truism. Outdoor access cats are exposed to the outdoors.


And anything it happens to hold.

are truly and irrevokably stupid. You love them or you don't.
You keep them safe or you don't. It's your choice.


A life in black and white, indeed. However, most of us think in full

colour and nuance.

What is true is true. When you let them roam you leave them exposed to
danger. Black and white? There is such a thing as objective truth. The most
obstinate relativists are usually those who are struggling to justify their
behavior. It's a clear sign that you know you are wrong and engage in a
behavior anyway.

What's quaint about you: you imagine yourself somehow made immune to the
truth by your superior attitude, the hallmark of which is your seemingly
nonchalant detachedness. What you are is as transparent as teenagers seem to
you.

Don't do the right thing. Do what you want. Because you can. It got the
British Empire pretty far.




  #107  
Old September 8th 04, 12:50 AM
Mary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steve G" wrote:

who does
indeed live in Chapel Hill (near where I live) allows his cats
to roam.


You may assume what you like. I shall make no statements one way or the

other regarding my cats. It's much more amusing to watch people project, and
you do it so vehemently. It's quaint, almost.

I thought so. They're your cats. It's your decision and you
will live with the consequences.


Well, they're his cats, but, once again, I don't want
to hear about it when one of them gets hit by a car, ripped
open by a dog, or poisoned by an insane neighbor.


Which car, which dog, which neighbour?


Does it matter?

(...)

Whatever. Steve lives in the US in an urban area. That's what
worries me.


Again, you make assumptions based on minimal data.

Incidentally, of the cats I am familiar with here, the majority do indeed

have outdoor access. My neighbours cat previous cat lived to c.20 years old
with free access to the Great Outdoors.

Your neighbor was a gambler, and it looks like you are too.


(...)

Anyone who has to be warned that allowing their cats to roam means

opening them up to ANYTHING that comes their way

A truism. Outdoor access cats are exposed to the outdoors.


And anything it happens to hold.

are truly and irrevokably stupid. You love them or you don't.
You keep them safe or you don't. It's your choice.


A life in black and white, indeed. However, most of us think in full

colour and nuance.

What is true is true. When you let them roam you leave them exposed to
danger. Black and white? There is such a thing as objective truth. The most
obstinate relativists are usually those who are struggling to justify their
behavior. It's a clear sign that you know you are wrong and engage in a
behavior anyway.

What's quaint about you: you imagine yourself somehow made immune to the
truth by your superior attitude, the hallmark of which is your seemingly
nonchalant detachedness. What you are is as transparent as teenagers seem to
you.

Don't do the right thing. Do what you want. Because you can. It got the
British Empire pretty far.




 




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