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#61
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"Wendy" wrote in message ... I'm wondering what the let your cats outdoors people think the benefit is. Is it the fresh air and exercise? If so that can be accomplished by building a large outside enclosure or having a screened in porch. If the point of going outside is to let the cat be unfettered, have the freedom to wander about and interact with the wildlife (translated chase/kill birds, mice and rabbits), then the enclosure or screened porch only increased the sq. footage of the "cage". It's certainly a good idea for people to try to build an enclosure or screen a porch for their cats. I don't think the Inside Cat Only brigade emphasises this enough ( I don't mean the people on this group !) to the average pet owner and the average pet owner might not have enough knowledge to keep their cat from being bored and frustrated. It's easier with dogs , you can take them to the park and they don't seem to mind doing the repetitious games such as catch the ball , my dog will do this twenty times and not be bored but cats are far to uintelligent and clever for that. My cat goes outside (daytime only), she is about 5 now and she doesn't go far from the garden . If I had to, I would fence the garden to keep her in but I don't feel she is at risk, though obviously, nothing in life is certain. She has the choice, in bad weather no way will she go out . So if she has a choice that's less frustration for her. When she goes out , she likes to patrol her patch and catch up on whose been visiting and what other animals have been in the garden , she will sit and watch at certain places for mice and maybe stalk the feral pigeons. This gives her a work ethic which is satisfying and stimulating, after that it's nap time in the shed . I have always had rabbits and guinea pigs and they attract mice, so her job is to keep the mice population down, other wise I would be over run . As to killing birds and mice and rabbits , so do hunters, dogs, farmers , people poison mice that come into their houses etc. Why make the cat out to be the baddie? If you eat meat or wear leather, that means an animal has died for you; should you become a vegan? When a cat goes out, *every* day is different. Cats are very intelligent and it's harder to replicate that indoors though maybe not impossible. Alison |
#62
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#63
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#64
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Fan wrote in message . ..
(...) I am very surprised that you didn't get a huge number of people who equate keeping a cat indoors to abuse. Other topics such as this one have often caused that. Some of the posters would have liked to hang anyone who even considered this. The rational dialog is refreshing. The reverse also applies, mind you, when the indoor-advocates are in full-flow... I believe that, wherever possible, cats should be given access to the outdoors - but not at any cost, nor in all situations. This is a casewise decision. The statistics show that an indoor cat lives much longer than an outdoor one because of the dangers of living outdoors. Well, no they don't, because there are (AFAIK) no reliable statistics that detail the longevity of indoor and outdoor cats. Feel free to provide a cite to prove me wrong though... (...) My cats ONLY go out on a leash and only during daylight. I.e., you have enough wit about you to provide access to the outdoors for your cats. Many people do not do this, and I'm sure that some simply cannot be bothered to. (...) They have a tremendous number of toys and cat friendly things to climb on. Since there is more than one cat, they also entertain one another. Wrestling is the number one sport here. Well, yes, if thought is given to the richness of the indoor environment, with sufficient space, and sufficient attention, indoor cats can obviously have an acceptable standard of life. However, my main issue is that indoor should not be the default choice and that the owner should carefully weigh up the risks and benefits for their cats, in their particular situation. Having said that, in the OP's case I would almost certainly keep my cats indoors, or with protected outdoor access, if coyotes had seen some of 'em off. I also echo the idea of having more than 1 indoor cat, especially if the cat(s) will be alone for large amounts of the day. YMMV. Steve. |
#65
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Fan wrote in message . ..
(...) I am very surprised that you didn't get a huge number of people who equate keeping a cat indoors to abuse. Other topics such as this one have often caused that. Some of the posters would have liked to hang anyone who even considered this. The rational dialog is refreshing. The reverse also applies, mind you, when the indoor-advocates are in full-flow... I believe that, wherever possible, cats should be given access to the outdoors - but not at any cost, nor in all situations. This is a casewise decision. The statistics show that an indoor cat lives much longer than an outdoor one because of the dangers of living outdoors. Well, no they don't, because there are (AFAIK) no reliable statistics that detail the longevity of indoor and outdoor cats. Feel free to provide a cite to prove me wrong though... (...) My cats ONLY go out on a leash and only during daylight. I.e., you have enough wit about you to provide access to the outdoors for your cats. Many people do not do this, and I'm sure that some simply cannot be bothered to. (...) They have a tremendous number of toys and cat friendly things to climb on. Since there is more than one cat, they also entertain one another. Wrestling is the number one sport here. Well, yes, if thought is given to the richness of the indoor environment, with sufficient space, and sufficient attention, indoor cats can obviously have an acceptable standard of life. However, my main issue is that indoor should not be the default choice and that the owner should carefully weigh up the risks and benefits for their cats, in their particular situation. Having said that, in the OP's case I would almost certainly keep my cats indoors, or with protected outdoor access, if coyotes had seen some of 'em off. I also echo the idea of having more than 1 indoor cat, especially if the cat(s) will be alone for large amounts of the day. YMMV. Steve. |
#66
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"Steve G" wrote in message om... (Luvskats00) wrote in message ... (...) For some insane reason, many people with cats with fight to the death for their right to let their cats roam among wild animals, toxic substances/poisons, heavy traffic, etc. For some insane reason, many people insist that their cats should be taken out of the environment for which they were designed, and forever imprisoned indoors. These people typically have no appreciation that different places have different hazards, and that many places have relatively few of same. Such people seem incapable of performing the most basic consideration of quality of life, and are often happy to coop up many cats within (for example), a small apartment. These people will equate access to the outdoors with a death sentence, somehow ignoring the millions of cats that live long, healthy, full lives with outdoor access. And do the obese, corn-fed indoor cats live on, fatly. Gosh, inflammatory language is so tedious, wouldn't you say? Not nearly as tiresome as your sarcasm. Do you mean to tell me that you live in Chapel Hill and let your cats roam? Rest assured that cats were not "designed" to live outside in the modern urban world. Steve. |
#67
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"Steve G" wrote in message om... (Luvskats00) wrote in message ... (...) For some insane reason, many people with cats with fight to the death for their right to let their cats roam among wild animals, toxic substances/poisons, heavy traffic, etc. For some insane reason, many people insist that their cats should be taken out of the environment for which they were designed, and forever imprisoned indoors. These people typically have no appreciation that different places have different hazards, and that many places have relatively few of same. Such people seem incapable of performing the most basic consideration of quality of life, and are often happy to coop up many cats within (for example), a small apartment. These people will equate access to the outdoors with a death sentence, somehow ignoring the millions of cats that live long, healthy, full lives with outdoor access. And do the obese, corn-fed indoor cats live on, fatly. Gosh, inflammatory language is so tedious, wouldn't you say? Not nearly as tiresome as your sarcasm. Do you mean to tell me that you live in Chapel Hill and let your cats roam? Rest assured that cats were not "designed" to live outside in the modern urban world. Steve. |
#68
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"Steve G" wrote in message om... Fan wrote in message . .. The statistics show that an indoor cat lives much longer than an outdoor one because of the dangers of living outdoors. Well, no they don't, Well, yes they do. because there are (AFAIK) Apparently, that's not far enough. no reliable statistics that detail the longevity of indoor and outdoor cats. Sure there are! There have been several major studies spanning almost 50 years, conducted in different parts of the country, published in peer-reviewed veterinary medical and behavior journals and texts, as well as in peer-reviewed wildlife journals that prove beyond a reasonable doubt indoor cats generally live *three* to *four* times longer than outdoor cats. To date *none* of these studies have been refuted. Feel free to provide a cite to prove me wrong though... "A cite"? How about three? Comfort A, Maximum ages reached by domestic cats. J Mammol 37:118-119, 1956 Kolata RJ, Kraut NH, Johnston DE, Patterns of trauma in urban dogs and cats: a study of 1,000 cases. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1974 Mar 1;164(5):499-502 Childs JE, Ross L, Urban cats: characteristics and estimation of mortality due to motor vehicles. Am J Vet Res 1986 Jul;47(7):1643-8) Keep in mind, urbanization with more people living in cities with their cats, and the number of motor vehicles have increased dramatically since 1956, 1974, and 1986. Therefore, these studies grossly underestimate the current mortality rate and overestimate the life expectancy of outdoor cats in the 21st century --- and they will only get *worse*. "Free ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in the general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an average lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20 years " Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D. Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behavior Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, In: Epidemiology; Chap 2, pg 5, Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals; 1997, Mosby ISBN 0-8016-6820-4. (Dr. Overall's statement is also supported by the above cited studies) "The average lifespan of an indoor cat is around twelve to fourteen years, ..while outdoor cats are lucky to reach double digits." (Excerpted from The Cat Who Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New York). Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research (and ironically, a Brit who are usually outdoor fanatics). Q.E.D. |
#69
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"Steve G" wrote in message om... Fan wrote in message . .. The statistics show that an indoor cat lives much longer than an outdoor one because of the dangers of living outdoors. Well, no they don't, Well, yes they do. because there are (AFAIK) Apparently, that's not far enough. no reliable statistics that detail the longevity of indoor and outdoor cats. Sure there are! There have been several major studies spanning almost 50 years, conducted in different parts of the country, published in peer-reviewed veterinary medical and behavior journals and texts, as well as in peer-reviewed wildlife journals that prove beyond a reasonable doubt indoor cats generally live *three* to *four* times longer than outdoor cats. To date *none* of these studies have been refuted. Feel free to provide a cite to prove me wrong though... "A cite"? How about three? Comfort A, Maximum ages reached by domestic cats. J Mammol 37:118-119, 1956 Kolata RJ, Kraut NH, Johnston DE, Patterns of trauma in urban dogs and cats: a study of 1,000 cases. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1974 Mar 1;164(5):499-502 Childs JE, Ross L, Urban cats: characteristics and estimation of mortality due to motor vehicles. Am J Vet Res 1986 Jul;47(7):1643-8) Keep in mind, urbanization with more people living in cities with their cats, and the number of motor vehicles have increased dramatically since 1956, 1974, and 1986. Therefore, these studies grossly underestimate the current mortality rate and overestimate the life expectancy of outdoor cats in the 21st century --- and they will only get *worse*. "Free ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in the general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an average lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20 years " Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D. Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behavior Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, In: Epidemiology; Chap 2, pg 5, Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals; 1997, Mosby ISBN 0-8016-6820-4. (Dr. Overall's statement is also supported by the above cited studies) "The average lifespan of an indoor cat is around twelve to fourteen years, ..while outdoor cats are lucky to reach double digits." (Excerpted from The Cat Who Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New York). Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research (and ironically, a Brit who are usually outdoor fanatics). Q.E.D. |
#70
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"Phil P." wrote in message
... "Steve G" wrote in message om... Fan wrote in message . .. The statistics show that an indoor cat lives much longer than an outdoor one because of the dangers of living outdoors. Well, no they don't, Well, yes they do. 98% of all statistics are made up :-) Statistics can be made to prove anything. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 22/07/04 |
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