Mom [OT]

David Stevenson wrote:

American culture. . Your criticism of the word seemed an insult to that
culture.

That's paranoia. There are no doubt things in British TV that annoy
you. That is not an attack on British culture, and in fact is not an
attack. You have a perfect right to likes and dislikes - in fact you
would hardly be a human being otherwise - and that does not constitute
an attack.

You know, Dave, when someone tells you that they feel offended by a
comment you have made, the sensitive response would be to apologize, or
at the very least, to try to understand why they might feel as they do.
You might not have intended offense - and most people who commit an
offense *don't* intend to do so - but nonetheless, it's a multicultural
group here, and it's inevitable that occasionally, one of us will
unintentionally step on someone else's toes. It's a learning experience
for all of us. So why are you refusing to learn? Why do you insist on
being so defensive about it? Nobody said you did it deliberately to
insult them. But it does add insult to injury when people try to tell
you they were offended and you respond by telling them all the reasons
why their feelings are "wrong".

I wasn't even offended by the comments about "mom", because I don't think
I even realized that "mom" is so intrinsic to American culture (duh) - I
never used that word, and nobody I knew ever did either. (BTW, I mentioned
this earlier, but that post seemed to get lost in the shuffle. Not *all*
Americans call their mothers "mom"!) However, I am getting annoyed at your
refusal to listen to what other people are trying to tell you. I suggest you
stop insisting that you are right and they are wrong, and learn something!

Joyce

Jette Goldie wrote:

My name - as given to me by my parents - is perhaps a
little difficult for the average Scot to pronounce -
Georgette, with a soft French G

So is it pronounced "Zheor-zhette" (the "zh" is like the s in "vision",
or like the j in the French "je".) Or is one of the G's like the English
j (like "jello", etc)?

So why the h*ll does my HR department insist on calling
me "Jetty"?

Probably because some people named Bette pronounce it "Betty" (eg,
Bette Davis). Of course, others pronounce it "Bet" (Bette Midler).
But since "Jette" isn't a common name here, people might be taking
their cue from Bette, since that's a similar spelling. Just a theory,
not a justification...

"but shouldn't it have one of those thingies over the last E?"

If there were an acute over the last e, it would be pronounced "Jet-AY",
not "Jet-ty", LOL!

Joyce

David Yehudah wrote:

Patty? Why, she wouldn't say it if she had a mouthful of it. A real
lady, she is. (Am I spreading it thick enough, yet?)

I'm drowning in it, Dave. Are you talking about "Potty-mouth Patty" here??

If I get really angry at her, which is rare because
she really is a sweetheart, I vent my spleen to the furniture in either
Spanish or Arabic, neither of which she speaks.

Didn't know you spoke Arabic - are you fluent in it? You also speak
Hebrew, don't you? Are you just a language maven? It always impresses
me when someone can speak several languages.

Joyce

in article , Ginger-lyn Summer at
wrote on 3/29/04 2:14 PM:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:12:57 GMT, wrote:


Well, maybe being a pedant is the problem - many pedantic people can be
tedious in their insistence on correctness and accuracy to an overly
fussy degree. To me it just comes across as cranky.

Joyce

Yep, David S. is cranky -- but he's *our* cranky Dave! ;-)

Ginger-lyn

He is an Original. And certified curmudgeon. I like that in him. You just
have to read his posts for a while or google. I think e-transmissions are
difficult to gauge. And he has beautiful cats.

Karen

Victor Martinez wrote:

David Yehudah wrote:

Since I have two Spanish-speakers here - Mexican Spanish, no less - I'd
like to ask a question. Last week I spent a day helping a friend with her
work. She had an employee who is from Mexico and didn't speak a lot of
English. When I had to speak to Ceci (the employee), we kind of stumbled
around with her poor English and my poor Spanish. We did OK, actually.
However, I noticed that she always addressed me using the formal ("usted")
form, even though we were on the same level (both working for the same
person). I am much older than she is, so that might be why she was so formal.
Or maybe she is used to calling all Norteamericanos "usted" (when they
understand Spanish).

Because I'm far more used to using the "tu" form, due to years of using it
in Spanish classes, and in conversations with just about everyone I've ever
spoken to, those verb forms come more easily to me than the formal forms
do. So anyway, we had her addressing me in the formal, and me addressing
her in the informal. I kind of wanted to tell her there was no need for
her to use such formal language with me, but I didn't because who am I to
tell her how to use her own language?? Maybe to her it would have felt
really inappropriate to use the informal with me. My question is, was I
insulting toward her to use the informal?

Joyce

Kreisleriana wrote:

I don't think David meant any offense either, but he does not seem to
want to acknowledge that there was a sensitivity possible in his
posting, and the way he posted it, and that he may have made a mistake
or miscalculation. Of course, many thing we say have unintended
consequences. When we grow up, we learn to try to be gracious when we
make those kinds of mistakes, instead of telling the people we may
have offended that they are wrong and we are right.

*Exactly*. You've nailed it. If you accidentally step on someone's foot
and they yell "ouch!", do you start telling them that you didn't intend
to hurt them, so why are they being so sensitive? No, if you're a decent
human being, you apologize. Does apologizing mean you are blaming yourself
for it? Not necessarily - accidents happen to everyone, and often they're
not anyone's fault. Nonetheless, the polite and considerate thing to do
is to apologize for causing someone hurt. It doesn't matter whether it
was intentional or not.

Joyce

Har. As a Spanish-speaking Gringo deep in the heart of Hispanic culture down
here in south FL, from personal experience I've gleaned that yes, it is a
courtesy to use the formal pronoun to either strangers or older folk; from
long years speaking Spanish @ work to all manner of Hispanics, that the only
ones who ever "raised a hackle" i.e. seemed taken aback much less "insulted"
by use of familiar pronouns were Spaniards from Spain (the most
formal-talking Hispanics I know of) and Argentines. Although, Joyce, even
though I've been speaking Spanish since 9th grade, always use the formal
pronoun myself (in a "can't go wrong" mentality) as my first teacher of the
language was a Mexican who stressed vigorously the courtesy and
appropriateness interwoven in his native language (i.e. as he himself said,
he was training us, his rowdy 14-year-old students, to "interact flawlessly"
with the people of Spain. We spent many a week in playacting ordering meals,
theater tickets,
public conveyance tickets, airplane ettiquette, etc. - all in the classroom.
God bless Thomas Renedo, who now lives in a large retirement home about a
mile from my house, for training my budding wannabe-Hispanic self in this
manner.





wrote in message
...
: Victor Martinez wrote:
:
: David Yehudah wrote:
:
: Since I have two Spanish-speakers here - Mexican Spanish, no less - I'd
: like to ask a question. Last week I spent a day helping a friend with her
: work. She had an employee who is from Mexico and didn't speak a lot of
: English. When I had to speak to Ceci (the employee), we kind of stumbled
: around with her poor English and my poor Spanish. We did OK, actually.
: However, I noticed that she always addressed me using the formal ("usted")
: form, even though we were on the same level (both working for the same
: person). I am much older than she is, so that might be why she was so
formal.
: Or maybe she is used to calling all Norteamericanos "usted" (when they
: understand Spanish).
:
: Because I'm far more used to using the "tu" form, due to years of using it
: in Spanish classes, and in conversations with just about everyone I've
ever
: spoken to, those verb forms come more easily to me than the formal forms
: do. So anyway, we had her addressing me in the formal, and me addressing
: her in the informal. I kind of wanted to tell her there was no need for
: her to use such formal language with me, but I didn't because who am I to
: tell her how to use her own language?? Maybe to her it would have felt
: really inappropriate to use the informal with me. My question is, was I
: insulting toward her to use the informal?
:
: Joyce

Precisely. It's usually quite clear to whom one is speaking. For
example, if someone introduces himself to me as "Bob Jones," and he is
obviously the MD you have been waiting to see, it is not really polite
to keep calling him "Bob" in a professional setting. If, however, you
are in a social setting and he introduces himself as "Bob Jones" and you
gauge him to be about your social equal, he has no reason to correct you
for calling him "Bob." Case in point, a good acquaintance of mine at the
synagogue turned out to be a full bird colonel in the air force and an
MD, but he insisted I call him "Jacob." I remember when I arrived at
university for enrollment, there were long lines of prospective students
waiting to see the registrars. One of them came up and said, "Hi, I'm
Roger Webb. May I help you?" From then on for several days he was good
'ol Roger. Then I found out he was not only a Ph.d and a full professor,
he was also the president of the university.

I agree with you that people who introduce themselves by their title are
being a bit too formal to be polite. I never do, myself, but there are
occasions when it is acceptable. For example, very few academics liked
to be called by their first name by their students. To me it's basically
good manners. I had a few professors in college that asked to be called
by their first name, but I always felt uncomfortable doing so.

Victor Martinez wrote:



IMO, one only uses the professional title in a professional setting. I
have no problem calling folks by their first name on a social setting if
that is how we were introduced. And if someone comes an introduces
themselves as "Hi, I'm Dr. so and so or Professor so and so"... then
those people need to have their egos shot down.

Then someone who spoke French (badly) would wait for you to finish the
sentence, as in "Je te. . ."

wrote:

If there were an acute over the last e, it would be pronounced "Jet-AY",
not "Jet-ty", LOL!

Joyce

I know a few curse words in Arabic. That's one of the things that annoys
Arabs in general; Hebrew has no curse words, so the Israelis curse in
Arabic. The worst you can do in Hebrew is "atta beheymah (you're an
animal)" or "lech l'Azazel (go to the devil). I like the Arabic words
because they mean things a lot nastier than the usual English curse
words. Same with Spanish. :-)

Over the years I've learned to speak several languages fluently, but
between lack of practice and several strokes, I can no longer claim
fluency in any except Spanish. Here in SoCal I get a lot of practice.
wrote:

David Yehudah wrote:

Patty? Why, she wouldn't say it if she had a mouthful of it. A real
lady, she is. (Am I spreading it thick enough, yet?)

I'm drowning in it, Dave. Are you talking about "Potty-mouth Patty" here??

If I get really angry at her, which is rare because
she really is a sweetheart, I vent my spleen to the furniture in either
Spanish or Arabic, neither of which she speaks.

Didn't know you spoke Arabic - are you fluent in it? You also speak
Hebrew, don't you? Are you just a language maven? It always impresses
me when someone can speak several languages.

Joyce