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  #101  
Old June 11th 05, 04:45 AM
Mary
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"Catnipped" wrote in message
...
"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
On Fri 10 Jun 2005 11:20:52p, Catnipped wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav ):

Actually, the same holds true for humans. Just because we can
rationalize anger and violence doesn't mean it doesn't scar us
just as badly.


And, since this is a cat group, who gives a ****?


Me. And if a person is hit as a child they are more likely to abuse
animals, so advocating the abolishment of corporal punishment to humans is
also advocating for the better treatment of cats. Or does the logic of

this
escape you???


lol! She's just being the unhappy **** that she it, CN.


  #102  
Old June 11th 05, 05:00 AM
Mary
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message
ups.com...

[snip a load of pseudo-intellectual, pop psychology bullhit]

I don't do violence Mary, I just think a swat can fix some things you
maybe do not agree. A swat is not on the other end of the violence
spectrum.


Reread your posts of today. I cannot be bothered to go back and
list the "bust the cat's ass" comments etc.

Once again: you are either stupid or careless.

Life is short. I don't have time for this bull****.


  #103  
Old June 11th 05, 05:04 AM
Mary
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message
ups.com...

[snip a load of pseudo-intellectual, pop psychology bull****]

I don't do violence Mary, I just think a swat can fix some things you

maybe do not agree. A swat is not on the other end of the violence spectrum.


Reread your posts of today. I cannot be bothered to go back and list the
"bust the cat's ass" comments etc.

If you don't want to be seen as a goddamned cretin, don't post like one.
Once you choose to post like one, do not backpedal when the tide goes
against you.

Once again: you are either stupid or careless.

Nothing personal, but I don't have time for this.



  #104  
Old June 11th 05, 05:30 AM
bigbadbarry
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Catnipped wrote:
But Barry, how does causing pain create morality?


I think you misunderstood my meaning.

And yes, the thief will
have a child who is a thief because that is what the child has been taught
by emulating his father?


I did not say a thief will begat a thief (he probably will, but this is
not what I said), I say, a thief can abstain from spanking his child.
Yet the child still be immoral. I said this as I thought you was
linking your method with morality. Plenty of hoodlums I have known,
have never got a spanking (and they are hoodlums for a reason I know.)
Spankings or No, does not have an effect on morals. As I say, I got my
share of beatings, and I am moral. I am the exception to your rule, and
if the rule is broken it is not a rule it is your belief...what it is
rooted in, I have not come to conclusion yet.

then won't a person who causes pain have a child who causes pain? And isn't
there enough pain in this life without us adding to it?
What does causing
pain really teach? Avoidance of the behavior that results in that pain?


I hardly think a swat is painful. It is not. It is the temporary sense
of feeling disconnected that is the motivator. To take my light from
you.
To hide my face from you, this is the motivation.


Yes, but again I'm saying it's better to run *toward* something than it is
to run away from something. You run towards the person who makes you feel
good (especially if they can make you feel good about yourself), you run
away from what or who hurts or frightens you.


I think it's ok to not spank a child, so long as the child minds. You
know.

Basically it's called behaviorism. Have you ever read any of B. F.
Skinner's research results? It's real and it's well documented.


No, I've never heard of this author. Thanks for the reccomendation.


B. F Skinner was a psychologist. Here's a quote from one of the web sites
about his work...

"B. F. Skinner's entire system is based on operant conditioning. The
organism is in the process of "operating" on the environment, which in
ordinary terms means it is bouncing around it world, doing what it does.
During this "operating," the organism encounters a special kind of stimulus,
called a reinforcing stimulus, or simply a reinforcer. This special
stimulus has the effect of increasing the operant -- that is, the behavior
occurring just before the reinforcer. This is operant conditioning: "the
behavior is followed by a consequence, and the nature of the consequence
modifies the organisms tendency to repeat the behavior in the future."

Imagine a rat in a cage. This is a special cage (called, in fact, a "Skinner
box") that has a bar or pedal on one wall that, when pressed, causes a
little mechanism to release a foot pellet into the cage. The rat is
bouncing around the cage, doing whatever it is rats do, when he accidentally
presses the bar and -- hey, presto! -- a food pellet falls into the cage!
The operant is the behavior just prior to the reinforcer, which is the food
pellet, of course. In no time at all, the rat is furiously peddling away at
the bar, hoarding his pile of pellets in the corner of the cage.


This is fundamentally flawed becuase it assumes that all organisms are
good.
They are not, it does not give consideration to the foolish.

I get the theory, but see humans would find a way to leave the cage, go
get a job and buy many pellets. It's just the truth. but I get the
theory.

Doing good as a course of life has it's own set of rewards. Reaping and
sowing, what I might think good for myself, someone else might consider
it meager.

I never said that pain or punishment doesn't work, but I did say that it
only works as a short-term (or partial) solution.


I think this is subjective.

***************
***************
How do you know that
Ruprecht doesn't continue the behavior when you're not there.



Here is the logistics.

When I swatted Ruprecht he felt disconnected, he didn't like that
feeling, and all he has to do to get the feeling back (what feeling?
LOVE) is not chew the chords no more. I didn't expect him to know it
could kill him, I just wanted him to sample the feeling of losing me.
Cause this is what he was fixing to do, loose me.

Now take it further, some parents will disown a child. and vica versa,
this is extreme. Some angels are fallen, and they are cut off from his
face. (forever)
****************
****************

a mother and child was walking
out of WalMart and apparently the child had done something she wasn't
supposed to because the mother stopped and spanked her.


I agree, the girl was probably humiliated.

Exactly. And a hypocrite is a person who tells a child to play nice and not
hit his sister and then hits the child for hitting his sister.


"Hits the child" children hit. Parents spank.

If you assign terms that in people minds are commonly used in
association with something, then you are skewing the philosophy.

You could say, The parent warns the child not to hit his sister.
He does it anyway right in front of you.

Now, did he, throw a rock and bust her lip?
or did he just barely tap her arm to show his protest to your
instruction?

You cannot remedy all actions with one prescription. The punishment
should fit the crime.

I could also say, that now the one who got hit, feels protected.

When the hypocrite spanks his child, that child associates pain and
fear with the giver of that pain. The hypocrite is building a time
bomb. I could go on....I could repeat your writings right here by
memory. I just think there are times when a swat says it all.

A swat says that you think violence is the answer to a problem.


You comment assumes that a swat is violence. This is your definition.

Judgement is key. You got an inch, you got a mile, and all points in
between.

We can't let the sots ruin it for the parent who lovingly set thier
child in the right path.


Anger/Love


Love should be the reason to control your anger.

Respect/Fear


Fear is not the same as respect.


Fear/Respect
You cannot have one without the other

This is why we have capital punishment. It keeps would be murderers
from killing. It makes people change thier minds about killing.

  #105  
Old June 11th 05, 05:37 AM
bigbadbarry
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Mary wrote:
protest


I did not invite you to comment on my opinion.
I don't care if you do pay $3.95 a month to get your fangs in.

You guys take something simple and create a cause with it.
This gives you a sense of worth. Tonight I helped stop violence.

With violence Mary? Talk about a hyprocrite.

Talk about a mind job.

  #106  
Old June 11th 05, 05:37 AM
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message
ups.com...

[snip a load of pseudo-intellectual, pop psychology bullhit]

I don't do violence Mary, I just think a swat can fix some things you
maybe do not agree. A swat is not on the other end of the violence
spectrum.


Reread your posts of today. I cannot be bothered to go back and
list the "bust the cat's ass" comments etc.

Once again: you are either stupid or careless.

Life is short. I don't have time for this bull****.


Sorry to piggyback but this post pretty well sums up the original
thought that I don't want to be bothered either to look up at the
moment.
Barry, she is right. You post very carelessly, and sometimes it seems
like you just start typing every thought that bounces through your head
at the moment you're writing. If you'd say what you mean, and mean what
you say, you'd spend less time backpedaling and explaining.
You said "bust the cat's ass." That is EXACTLY what you said, and it's
not the first time you claim to be "misunderstood" about your violent
tendencies toward behavior modification. Lyn called you on the exact
same thing way back, and you made a big deal out of explaining what you
meant.
I don't think you'd ever intentionally hurt cat. Then say it like you
mean it. THINK before you post.

Sherry

  #107  
Old June 11th 05, 05:52 AM
bigbadbarry
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Mary wrote:

If you don't want to be seen as a goddamned cretin, don't post like one.
Once you choose to post like one, do not backpedal when the tide goes
against you.

Once again: you are either stupid or careless.

Nothing personal, but I don't have time for this.


You guys are the ones who assigned the term violence to a swat. Not me!
So, that's your baby, you rock it. Leave me out of it.

You assigned the most haneous terms and buzz words you could find to
the word swat.

slap, hit, violence, "isnt there enough pain in the world"

If you are really this blind, I feel bad for ya's

  #109  
Old June 11th 05, 06:11 AM
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bigbadbarry wrote:
Mary wrote:

If you don't want to be seen as a goddamned cretin, don't post like one.
Once you choose to post like one, do not backpedal when the tide goes
against you.

Once again: you are either stupid or careless.

Nothing personal, but I don't have time for this.


You guys are the ones who assigned the term violence to a swat. Not me!
So, that's your baby, you rock it. Leave me out of it.

You assigned the most haneous terms and buzz words you could find to
the word swat.

slap, hit, violence, "isnt there enough pain in the world"

If you are really this blind, I feel bad for ya's


Hitting is hitting. How hard you're hitting them is incidental. I
realize this is not about children, but hitting children simply teaches
them one thing: You're bigger than they are and you can hurt them. I
never hit mine.
But back to cats. Hitting makes cats fear you. I don't think "respect"
comes into the picture, regarding cat behavior. But TRUST does, and
hitting a cat, no matter how hard, erodes trust.
That's just my personal opinion. I[m not a behaviorist, and don't
pretend or claim to be one. I never hit my cats, either. I clap my
hands and yell "no." They have pretty decent housecat manners, don't
bite or scratch, and haven't ever really clawed inappropriately.
Another thing, and this is what Bootsie gets for jumping on the other
cats; is to pick her up and put her in the bathroom for about 2-5
minutes. You can laugh about "time out for cats" if you want to, but if
you're repetitive enough, it does work. It also gives her time to calm
herself down. She is somewhat high-strung and aggressive by nature and
the others are very laid-back.

Sherry

  #110  
Old June 11th 05, 06:38 AM
Philip
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message
ups.com...


Catnipped wrote:
I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent
behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my
life
and I certainly didn't grow up to be a serial killer or a "*******"! And
neither did my children who are now practicing this child-rearing method
on
their own children (who are all on the honor roll, participating in
sports,
and have never been in any kind of trouble).


This is a commendable, and rare oddity. Sounds highly whitewashed, but
I have to take your word for it.

snip

Agreed, Barry. I've seen well intentioned parents refuse to administer
corporal punishment but ... they don't give a second thought to all sorts of
psychological punishment, ie, estrangement, many forms of neglect, handing
off to some other parent who will lay down the law, and especially single
mothers who will get and manipulate a boyfriend to play Evil Father while
mom gets to look like the Glenda, the good witch of the North in the eyes of
her children. There are a lot of single mothers whose children should be
placed with an intact foster family to save the kids from mom's boyfriends.


 




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