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#71
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"Catnipped" wrote I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my life and I certainly didn't grow up to be a serial killer or a "*******"! I was never spanked either. And neither did my children who are now practicing this child-rearing method on their own children (who are all on the honor roll, participating in sports, and have never been in any kind of trouble). "Discipline" does *NOT* mean violent behavior - it means providing a structured, controlled and safe environment for those we love. You can't provide discipline if your own behavior and emotions are undisciplined. Being in charge does not mean being a bully! First and foremost it means being in charge of your own behavior and emotions and exampling to the young (either human or animal) how to control their behavior even in anger. Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in solving a problem. Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are contradicted by the actions we perform). I did swat Gnarly when she bit and drew blood, but it was mostly because I did not know what else to do. After one or two times (and this was essentially tapping her on the side of her face, not a real slap, just enough to annoy her) she stopped biting me. But of course I did a lot of things wrong with her. I was in my teens when I got her. |
#72
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"Mary" wrote
This is the same stupid bitch who would not take her kitten to the vet when he had a broken tail. Her "pure bred" kitten that she intended to breed. Then lied about it. It has to be a full moon. It is? Crap. I can't keep up with who said what anymore. I just answered another question from her in a different thread. Hope the grandbabies don't get spanked People keep saying that if you don't hit or spank, the child (or cat, in this case) isn't disciplined. Not true. There are many ways to discipline without hitting. Go watch Supernanny, she actually has a lot of good discipline techniques. -- -Kelly |
#73
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message
ups.com... Catnipped wrote: I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my life and I certainly didn't grow up to be a serial killer or a "*******"! And neither did my children who are now practicing this child-rearing method on their own children (who are all on the honor roll, participating in sports, and have never been in any kind of trouble). This is a commendable, and rare oddity. Sounds highly whitewashed, but I have to take your word for it. It's probably as hard for someone who has been reared in a violent home to believe that there are homes where violence is never used, but they do exist. "Discipline" does *NOT* mean violent behavior - it means providing a structured, controlled and safe environment for those we love. You can't provide discipline if your own behavior and emotions are undisciplined. Why do you think correction means malice? Real correction stems from love. I don't wanna get into all this, but a child who never mis-behaves well, they should not be spanked. A child who does, and is not spanked? That is an unhappy child. I don't think that correction means malice, I think correction means just that - correcting bad behavior by exampling restraint and rewarding good behavior. Children who are not spanked are not unhappy - children who are not disciplined are unhappy, but as I've explained spanking and discipline are not only two different things, they are polar opposites. Being in charge does not mean being a bully! First and foremost it means being in charge of your own behavior and emotions and exampling to the young (either human or animal) how to control their behavior even in anger. This is a stretch and an assumption on your part; for I fully believe what I'm talking about; and I'm not out of control. No, not an assumption, simple fact. You can believe in what you're talking about 100 percent and still be 100 percent wrong. If you are giving vent to your anger, then you *are* out of control, and there is not other reason for hitting someone than giving vent to your anger. Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in solving a problem. Would this include the way Phil has been acting in humping all my posts? This has nothing to do with Phil, I was responding to your suggestion to commit violence on a being weaker than you are - that's bullying. Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are contradicted by the actions we perform). I know, you didn't read my posts, truth is, it is over your head anyway, you wouldn't understand it, it's a whole other field of practice. You probably count to 3 before even taking a moderate action towards correction. No, I don't have to count to three. Being reared the way I was (and the way I reared my children) means that my anger never gets out of control to the point that I have to take time to gain control. Hugs, CatNipped I love ya babe, but this is bull**** bull****! OK, think of it like this. When a child (or animal) misbehaves and "causes" you to lose your temper and resort to violence, then *they* are controlling *you*. My children could do whatever they chose to "get a rise" out of me, but they *never* "got a rise" out of me. *I* chose how I would react, and what I chose was to address their behavior, and change it. When you react with anger and perpetrate violence (and how in the world can anyone state that hitting is *not* voilent??!), you are allowing womeone else to control you instead of being in control of a situation. Really Barry, when you hit someone, at the *best* you are simply teaching them to be afraid of you (and thereby try harder not to get *caught*) - and at worse you are teaching them to *be* violent. Does the world really need more violence????! When you teach someone to behave well because they are getting rewarded for behaving well you are setting up this changes their fellings about behaving well and not just to behave well out of fear. If you're interested, here is some commentary I wrote on parenting that explaines the "Three Cs" in more depth: "C1 - Control, and this means control of yourself first! No screaming or hitting in reaction to what your child does, that gives HIM control over YOU (HE does act A, YOU have reaction B - he controls you!). It's very easy to lose your temper and threaten or spank the child, but this only strengthens his knowledge that he can control your actions with his. You'll usually calm down later and regret grounding him or hitting him and then rescind the punishment or apologize, again this puts him in control - he got his way with no, or amended consequences. C2 - Consequences, both good and bad as in, "If you choose to finish your homework you'll get an extra fifteen minutes of TV tonight, if you choose to not finish your homework you will be given two extra chores to do". ALWAYS put it in that manner - that he is the one who is choosing his fate, not you or anyone else. Remember to keep both the rewards and punishments reasonable. Don't make rewards or punishments you can't keep. Don't promise a new bike if you can't afford one, and don't threaten to "ground him for the rest of his life" when you know that's not conceivable. Keep all things "child-sized" - an ice cream cone is precious to a three-year-old, and a fifteen minute time-out works better than a week's grounding, and it still gets the point across. For older children and teenagers larger rewards or punishments are necessary. AND CONCENTRATE ON THE REWARDS! It's long been known that positive reinforcement is much more effective (although it may take longer) than negative reinforcement. Always tell him the results of EVERYTHING he may choose to do, before hand. [Side note, this was especially hard to do with my very creative son - who would have thought to say to the boy, before hand, "If you choose to shave the cat, you'll be given a 15 minute "time-out"??!??] Always let the child know that HE has the choice of what will happen to him as a consequence of the way he acts. This teaches PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. It lets the child know that whatever consequences fall upon him are the result of HIS actions (this is mostly true in society). Always let him know that it is HIS choice and HIS actions that receive the reward or punishment, not you arbitrarily deciding his fate or "just being mean." Put the responsibility on HIS back, and let him learn it well. When he whines about a punishment, calmly say, "I'm sorry, but this is what YOU CHOSE to happen." When he is thrilled with rewards, say to him, "You earned this yourself with YOUR CHOICE of good behavior." Remember, the more praise he gets for his good behavior, the harder he will strive to be good - it's human nature to want to be praised and we will work VERY hard to achieve it. C3 - Consistency, consistency, consistency - CUBED!! Once you set the consequences, carry through, IMMEDIATELY, EVERY TIME, with both the rewards and the punishment (the immediate part is especially essential, because children have a different concept of time than we do). After you have this working for a bit and the child is behaving like a little angel for weeks, you might be tempted to let him get by with a little misbehavior just this once - BIG MISTAKE! This will scrap all the work you've done and you'll have to start all over again. Children will always test the limits. My pediatrician put it like this "Parents are safety rails for a child. If you were on an unfamiliar balcony, wouldn't you reach out and shake the railings to see if they were sturdy and dependable before leaning your weight on them?" When he learns that there is a consequence to his every action, EVERY SINGLE TIME, then it will stop being a performance and become a part of his mentality. Think about it in the adult world. If a many-times-convicted thief has not stolen for three years then steals again, do we say, "Well, you've been so good for three years, we'll just let you go on this one." NO WAY, he gets convicted and sent to jail yet again! All of this seems very simple, condensed down this way, but there was a lot more we had to learn along with the Three Cs. The program lasted two years, going to three-hour "classes", four times a week. It was very hard to change MY behavior (it is so hard to look at your prized antique vase shattered on the floor and not scream just a little!) I was also working against everything I'd learned from "the way I was raised," - early learning goes very deep. I think four years of high school training might be enough for most teens (if they were taught well when they were younger). [Another side note... The Three Cs works just as well on another adult as it does on a child. It's human nature to want and work for good strokes and to avoid what hurts. Try it on your spouse or boss! ; ] " |
#74
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message ups.com... Catnipped wrote: Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in solving a problem. Would this include the way Phil has been acting in humping all my posts? This does not even follow, Barry. Phil is upset at what you are recommending, and so am I. He genuinely cares about cats and has seen the results of abuse. Phil has forgotten more than you have time to learn about cats. You are dead wrong here, and you ought to be person enough to admit it. Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are contradicted by the actions we perform). I know, you didn't read my posts, truth is, it is over your head anyway, you wouldn't understand it, it's a whole other field of practice. You probably count to 3 before even taking a moderate action towards correction. Hugs, CatNipped I love ya babe, but this is bull**** bull****! She's right. And you had better understand that not a gd thing you have written is "over her head." Or mine. You are wrong. |
#75
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message
oups.com... Catnipped wrote: I am willing to bet that the households you volunteered to mention are predominately ran by women. Tell me Im wrong. This is not a bad thing, but with women and children; it's a little different when a female is calling the shots. Quite different. Then you would lose that bet. Men aren't intrinsically violent, they're taught to be violent. My father was not violent, my husband is not violent, and my son is not violent. They are all gentle, but *STRONG* (it takes *MUCH* more strength to control yourself than it does to beat up someone weaker than you are). |
#76
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"bigbadbarry" wrote
You may have had an abusive father. You have not heard me suggest one ounce of abuse, but it's easier for your little mind to just throw it all, rather than consider any of it. It wasn't abuse in the "CPS would have taken me away" sense, but it's just what you "that child needs an ass-whuppin" types advocate. I spilled something at dinner, I got spanked and sent away from the table. That type of thing. I wasn't bleeding or bruised, but it's enough to make a child scared. -- -Kelly |
#77
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"KellyH" wrote in message ... "bigbadbarry" wrote Why do you think correction means malice? Real correction stems from love. Correction does not equal violence. There are plenty of ways to discipline and correct a child or animal that do not involve hitting. I don't wanna get into all this, but a child who never mis-behaves well, they should not be spanked. A child who does, and is not spanked? That is an unhappy child. You know what? I was spanked, and it didn't teach me a damn thing except to be afraid of my father. Sure, I wouldn't do whatever I was doing wrong again, but not because "oh, now I know that's wrong" but because I didn't want to get hit again. I am NOT going to do the same thing to my children. I was never spanked, and I did lots of stuff I should not have. My father shamed me and my mother guilted me. That was all it took. I'm done with you Barry. You have really shown your true colors in this thread. Mary, do you really want to defend this POS? No, Kelly, I don't. I do like Barry but here he is wrong. And this nonsense about a difference between households run by men and women is really scary. Marriage is a partnership. Some work better than others, but any time any single person is dominating, what we have is something the **** out of Deliverance--the dark ages--the Bad Old Days. It is ignorant and dangerous. It is a dangerous product of ignorance. And a man who has to raise his hand to anything weaker than himself is not a man at all. |
#78
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"bigbadbarry" wrote in message ups.com... KellyH wrote: I'm done with you Barry. You have really shown your true colors in this thread. Mary, do you really want to defend this POS? -- -Kelly No-one suggested you did; excuse me for challenging your belief system. You may have had an abusive father. You have not heard me suggest one ounce of abuse, but it's easier for your little mind to just throw it all, rather than consider any of it. Later No, Barry, she is reading the same posts I am reading. You're talking about controlling via dominance and aggression against smaller, weaker creatures, and even suggesting that this is the was "real men" "run" their families. It's ****ing nuts. |
#79
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"Catnipped" wrote It's probably as hard for someone who has been reared in a violent home to believe that there are homes where violence is never used, but they do exist. Once again, you get right to the heart of the issue at hand. |
#80
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"Mary" wrote in message
news:1118448462.e11b696deaf18c2888e1d3ef7c0ef91e@t eranews... "Catnipped" wrote I have never understood how someone could think they will stop violent behavior by demonstrating violent behavior. I was never spanked in my life and I certainly didn't grow up to be a serial killer or a "*******"! I was never spanked either. And neither did my children who are now practicing this child-rearing method on their own children (who are all on the honor roll, participating in sports, and have never been in any kind of trouble). "Discipline" does *NOT* mean violent behavior - it means providing a structured, controlled and safe environment for those we love. You can't provide discipline if your own behavior and emotions are undisciplined. Being in charge does not mean being a bully! First and foremost it means being in charge of your own behavior and emotions and exampling to the young (either human or animal) how to control their behavior even in anger. Violence is *NEVER* a solution to problems, but it's the first resort of the unintelligent or those who don't have other resources to bring to bear in solving a problem. Again, those we are trying to teach *always* learn by example and *never* by the words coming out of our mouths (that are contradicted by the actions we perform). I did swat Gnarly when she bit and drew blood, but it was mostly because I did not know what else to do. After one or two times (and this was essentially tapping her on the side of her face, not a real slap, just enough to annoy her) she stopped biting me. But of course I did a lot of things wrong with her. I was in my teens when I got her. There isn't a person alive who has not made a mistake (I've made more than my fair share - youth = stupidity). The important thing is if you admit you've made a mistake and learn from it rather than trying to defend what you've done and continuing to do it so you don't have to admit you were wrong. It's the difference between being a grown up or a perpetual child. Children make excuses and try to rationalize bad behavior - adults admit they're fallible, correct the behavior, and learn what *not* to do in the future. Hugs, CatNipped |
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