OT - Suicide a Sin?

CatEyes wrote:
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some conclusions.
It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an "irony
meter"). Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church can absolve
someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). Most Protestants believe that
only Christ can forgive sins, and that can be done after death, so suicide
isn't necessarily a "go straight to hell" card. But Catholics believe that
anyone committing suicide, since they don't have the chance to be absolved
of their sins by the Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting hell - in
unspeakable agony for all of eternity. Well.... that kind of puts a damper
on thoughts of "ending the pain", doesn't it? I think it is probably the
vestiges of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason I'm alive right
now (and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing considering the
constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much mom!!!).

What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place where we
could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. I'm hoping we can retain
a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this discussion into a war
thread.

Hugs,

CatNipped


For a long time now, my reply to "how are you?' might be: "Everything
hurts and what doesn't hurt doesn't work". I cannot think of any of my
friends who can honestly answer differently.

You are a talented writer, so get out your pencil and paper and write
and keep writing. The pain might not go away but perhaps you can forget
it for a while.

COMPENSATION

When trouble came and skies grew gray,
This, we thought, is here to stay.
But trouble in time went on its way
And when it left we found we wore
An armor we"d not known before.
(Lucretia Penny)

Purrs for a brighter tomorrow. MLB



1"

"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" wrote:

Personally, I define "sin" as an action that harms someone else
(materially, physically, or emotionally).

Agreed! Actually, I don't believe in sin at all. I think there are
right and wrong responses to problems (usually more than one of each),
and there are actions I would strongly disapprove of, usually involving
harming someone else. But the notion of "sin" is a religious one to me,
and I don't follow any religion.

I think there are
circumstances in which suicide may REALLY be the best solution, but
NOT simply as an escape from depression!

Right, such as when someone has a terminal disease that is agonizing.
I don't consider it wrong to choose to die in those circumstances at
all, especially since one can choose to do it with some thought and
planning, and can give loved ones a chance to say goodbye. I know it's
illegal in many (maybe most) places, but not everywhere. First and
foremost, your life belongs to you, and it's yours to live or to end
as you see fit.

As for suicide as a response to depression, I agree that's a harder
one to judge. That usually comes from desperation. A depressed suicidal
person usually doesn't tell anyone what they're planning, unless they
want help preventing it. (Which is why it's *so* important to listen and
take someone seriously if they say they've been thinking of suicide.)
So often, when someone commits suicide like that, it's a big shock to
everyone around them, who often had no idea something like that was
coming. They don't understand it, and as you say, they feel tremendous
guilt that they weren't able to stop it.

I still wouldn't consider that a "sin", though. It's tragic, and so
often, it's preventable. But after someone's been through so much pain
that they believed ending their life is the only option, why (assuming
there's an afterlife and a deity passing judgement on a person's soul)
would it be necessary to punish them any further??

--
Joyce ^..^

To email me, remove the XXX from my user name.

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
"CatEyes" wrote in message
...

Not being snarky, but my pain isn't temporary - it's real, it's physical,
and it's going to be with me every second of the day, 24/7, for the rest
of my life. Pain killers don't really give any relief because the body
becomes tolerant and they stop working. And even if they did, the FDA
and the DEA are both on a special campaign in the "war on drugs" to make
sure that opiate pain killers are taken off the market as soon as
possible (and they're sending doctors to prison left and right so more
doctors are becoming to afraid to even prescribe them any more). They've
order 13 drug companies to take pain meds off the market because they
haven't been "FDA Approved" (because they've been used since before there
was an FDA).


I wonder if you could find and participate in a clinical trial for new
pain medications? My mom was in one for her balance problem, and she was
able to drop out at any time if she experienced any side effects that were
uncomfortable to her. I found this page for resource for you, too.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/149283.php

And more specifically, here is a link from that page:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/135635.php

I hope you don't give up and you can find something to relieve your
constant pain.


Thank you Cheryl! You know, I haven't tried going the clinical trial route,
but that might be an option.

As much as I think about it, I would never actually commit suicide - I
wouldn't do that to my family. I have a granddaughter who is fighting for
her life every day against Hodgkins Lymphoma - my suicide would be a slap in
the face to her and I would *never* do that no matter how badly I'm hurting.

But I can't say I don't think about it - it is the only end in sight to my
pain (but with my luck I'll die after 20 years of pain and then be sentenced
to hell because I didn't go to church every Sunday, also, I believe, a
mortal sin in the Catholic Church). ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

"Adrian" wrote in message
om...
CatEyes wrote:
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some
conclusions. It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an
"irony meter"). Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church
can absolve someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). Most
Protestants believe that only Christ can forgive sins, and that can
be done after death, so suicide isn't necessarily a "go straight to
hell" card. But Catholics believe that anyone committing suicide,
since they don't have the chance to be absolved of their sins by the
Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting hell - in unspeakable agony
for all of eternity. Well.... that kind of puts a damper on thoughts
of "ending the pain", doesn't it? I think it is probably the
vestiges of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason I'm alive
right now (and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing
considering the constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much
mom!!!).
What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place
where we could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. I'm
hoping we can retain a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this
discussion into a war thread.

Hugs,

CatNipped

I don't believe it's a sin as I'm absolutely certain there is no God.

How do you know with such certainty (not arguing, I'm just really curious as
to how you came by that view)?

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
Adrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow)
Cats leave pawprints on your heart
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

"CatEyes" wrote in message

Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some
conclusions. It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

I was brought up Catholic (lapsed when I got old enough to grow an
"irony meter"). Catholics are taught that only the Catholic Church
can absolve someone of their sins (hence "Last Rites"). Most
Protestants believe that only Christ can forgive sins, and that can
be done after death, so suicide isn't necessarily a "go straight to
hell" card. But Catholics believe that anyone committing suicide,
since they don't have the chance to be absolved of their sins by the
Catholic Church, will burn in everlasting hell - in unspeakable agony
for all of eternity. Well.... that kind of puts a damper on thoughts
of "ending the pain", doesn't it? I think it is probably the
vestiges of that Catholic upbringing that's the only reason I'm alive
right now (and, right now, being alive *isn't* a good thing
considering the constant pain I'm in, so thank you oh so very much
mom!!!).
What are your thoughts on the subject?

One last comment - this forum is (or at least *used* to be) a place
where we could discuss *anything* politely, even politics. I'm
hoping we can retain a modicum of that forbearance and not turn this
discussion into a war thread.

There's a fine line between suicide and euthanasia.

Euthanasia - as all of us know with our pets - is the final act of mercy.
Its sad, even tragic, but it is done to relieve otherwise unrelievable and
extreme suffering and constitutes an act of mercy, even love (IMHO). It is
done with the full knowledge and indeed blessings of the loved ones. The
survivors of the euthanised one will grieve, but are left feeling the right
and merciful thing was done. (KFC not withstanding, I don't mean to be
insensitive to Tweed here)

Suicide is a personal decision, and whilst it does end the extreme suffering
of the individual who killed themselves, it is not (usually) done with the
full blessing or even knowledge of their loved ones. As a consequence, those
who were nearest and dearest often suffer for the rest of their lives with
feelings of guilt, with the 'what ifs' and the 'if onlys' and indeed,
depending on how the suicider managed to do it, the image of the body as
they found it.

I personally don't find euthansaia morally wrong as no harm is done and the
act was done out of love & compassion. With suicide, whilst I can understand
and sympathise with the motives of the suicider (to end the pain &
suffering) and forgive them, I can still the see the great harm done to
others by their actions. It is this harm to others rather than the act of
suicide itself that I would consider morally wrong.

I would not presume to speak on behalf of any Deity - but ifyou believe in
and care about Deity's opinion on the matter, perhaps it would be prudent to
take it up with him/her/it/them first.

(Reminds me that in Pratchett's Discworld, there are almost no murders.
Getting killed by going into a Dwarvish in and cracking a short joke, for
example, is considered suicide, not murder)

Yowie
--
If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many
pancakes can you fit in a doghouse? None, icecream doesn't have bones.

Baird Stafford wrote:

This probably won't help much - Wicca, despite the popular perspective
of it, is not a particularly forgiving religion.

What do you mean by "forgiving"?

You know you're getting old when Muzak plays the Top 40 of your salad days.

Ha - what are you, then, if this happened a long time ago?

--
Joyce ^..^

To email me, remove the XXX from my user name.

"jmcquown" wrote in message
...
"CatEyes" wrote in message
...
Sorry for the dark topic, but I know a lot of you here suffer from
depression, so you may have thought about this and come to some
conclusions. It's something that's been on my mind a lot lately.

(snippage)

I don't even want to know why you're asking.

A Sin? No. I'm not religious in any traditional sense of the word so
that word holds no meaning for me. Morally wrong? Absolutely.

Depression isn't an excuse to kill yourself. There are medications (even
herbal OTC) to help with that. My LLL's father did the murder/suicide
thing. Shot his second wife then put the gun to his head. He was left to
deal with the consequences, including informing his mother her ex-husband
had killed his wife and himself. 30 years later he's still feeling
guilty, thinking he should have known his father needed help. Thinking
there should have been something he could have done. It's a horrible
thing to do to your family and friends. Which is what makes it morally
reprehesensible. IMHO, of course.

Unless you suffer from diagnosed depression yourself and understand it which
maybe you don't, awful things can happen with it as we just see in your
post.

Tweed

Yowie wrote:

There's a fine line between suicide and euthanasia.

snip

I'd put it the other way around - unless the action is a result of a
mental illness, euthanasia is worse than suicide since it involves a
second person in the killing of a human being.

Followers of the many religions which classify such actions as sins can
often come up with reasons that may lie behind the "Because God says so"
argument. The most obvious is the effect such a death has on family and
friends. Many victims of suicide or euthanasia believe they are helping
their friends and relatives. No one who has gone through the loss of
someone close to them to suicide, or who has seen someone try to fight
off the conviction that they're somehow subhuman and worthless and
shouldn't be kept alive because of their incurable illness or disability
could agree. Moreover, such things can go in clusters, so the damage
isn't limited to family and friends. There have been many cases where
the news of a suicide sparks off further suicides in a small group,
especially a group of teens. Or the public approval given to some
euthanasia case tips the balance in the mind of someone who is
suffering, but who might, given time, have regained her balance, or
maybe just finished up the last reconciliations and the last
conversations with their family and friends. I can't imagine my last
conversation with my next-of-kin being an attempt to persuade them to
murder me - I can imagine my next-of-kin, who hate watching suffering as
much as the next person, possibly thinking that maybe I'd be better off
dead, but I trust them not to act on it.

There can be forgiveness for sins. Even Roman Catholics will acknowledge
that no one can know what goes on between the action and the actual
death, so who knows whether or not the suicide has repented and is
forgiven? But it's an absolute certainty that friends, relatives,
professionals (police, ambulance attendants etc) and possibly even
acquaintances and strangers, depending on the exact circumstances, are
going to be badly hurt by a suicide.

Cheryl

"CatEyes" wrote in message
...
"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
"CatEyes" wrote in message
...

no matter how badly I'm hurting.

But I can't say I don't think about it - it is the only end in sight to my
pain (but with my luck I'll die after 20 years of pain and then be
sentenced to hell because I didn't go to church every Sunday, also, I
believe, a mortal sin in the Catholic Church). ;


Don't be so ridiculous.

Tweed


CatNipped

Yowie wrote:

I personally don't find euthansaia morally wrong as no harm is done and the
act was done out of love & compassion. With suicide, whilst I can understand
and sympathise with the motives of the suicider (to end the pain &
suffering) and forgive them, I can still the see the great harm done to
others by their actions. It is this harm to others rather than the act of
suicide itself that I would consider morally wrong.

I find it hard to place a moral judgement on an act when it's committed
by someone who is not in their right mind. Maybe it's a psychotic person
who commits suicide because the voices are telling him/her to, or a
severely depressed person who simply can't see any end to the pain, any
worth to their existence, or any point in living. Some mental illnesses
can cause a person to become extremely detached from the world and from
their own feelings about other people, so that they're no longer capable
of caring about how those people are going to cope with their death. Or
they come to believe they're doing those people a favor ("they're better
off without me", etc).

Suicide is tragic and often preventable. Especially when you're talking
about young people under stress, who simply don't have the experience to
understand that bad feelings can pass. So I'm not saying we should just
sit back and let people off themselves or something. I'm just saying that
I wouldn't put a moral judgement on the suicidal person, because I think
in many (maybe most) cases, they've lost the ability to make a rational,
responsible choice.

--
Joyce ^..^

To email me, remove the XXX from my user name.