Small Animal Clinical Nutrition book / Mark Morris Institute

No, that's not true. There are numerous "no name" brands that I have never
heard of in the book. Check out the appendix. Anybody else ever heard of
Wafcol??

Sure, available in the UK.

Joe, is it a major brand over there?

"Karen M." wrote in message ...
Just an FYI -

I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

That is incorrect. It is correct that the founder of the Morris Animal
Foundation, the largest animal philanthropy in the US is Dr. Mark
Morris. It is also correct that Dr. Mark Morris, who invented
Prescription Diet k/d in 1948 to treat Buddy the first Seeing Eye dog
in the US, was also was the founder of Hill's - Mark Morris
Associates, the publisher of SACN IV and Hill's have ZERO connections.
MMA is now operated by Dr. Mark Morris Jr. the son of the founder. The
only surviving financial connection of any kind is that Hill's still
pays a royalty to the Morris Animal Foundation. That royalty has been
in existance since the agreement between Burton Hill and Mark Morris
in the early 50's.

To state that Hill's in any way has any control or any influence over
MMA is a complete laugh. You have to know Dr. Morris to understand
what a laughable matter that is.



2. An interestingly large number of contributors to the book as a whole,
and a majority of the contributors to the pet food sections work or
worked for either Hill's or MMI.

That is also entirely incorrect. The editors of the book may be MMA
employees and some like Dr. Roudebush are employees of Hill's, but
they are the editors, not the authors. The authors are listed in the
bibliography and I'm quite sure you observed that the bibliography
behind each chapter illustrates that the authors are the individuals
who know the most about that particular issue. For instance when you
look at Chapter 19 about renal diseas you will find a bibliography
containing 175 published studies by authors and researchers from
around the world. Of those 175 published studies, only 3 were authored
by a Hill's or MMA emplpoyee. Many more authors like Chew and
Remillard are frequently in opposition to Hill's.



3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams,
Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.

I think you need to recognize that this book was intended for
veterinarians who deal with all the clients who walk in the door. Thus
the vast majority of common foods are covered. It would take another
10 pound book to cover the tiny little niche food producers.
Nonetheless on pages 1074 - 1082 dozens of pet foods are covered -
probably 99% of the foods actually fed to pets. Additionally dealing
with specific food producers is not the critical factor in a book of
this type, it is designed to provide basic foundational knowledge
about small animal clinical nutrition. It is not designed to be a
reference book for pet foods, but rather a reference book for
nutrition. A veterinarian need not know that brand A has X level of
nutrient, s/he needs to know that nutrient X impacts a renal failure
animal in some manner. S/he can always find out what level nutrient X
is in any given food.



And, on a less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested
in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

I doubt the authors of the book can help you with this problem. The
facts are the facts, and the results of homemade diets are factually
problematic. You may not like the facts but the authors of the book
cannot account for your enmotional decisions. This is a book of facts
and science, not emotionally driven ideas from the fringe lunatic
arena based on internet fantasies and a goof ball in Australia.


As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really
looking forward to some unbiased, clinical information on different
types of pet diets.

And that is exaclty what you got. I would guess you are dissapointed
because you were looking for data to support what cannot be supported
in science, but can only be supported by opinions and internet
fantasies.


I won't respond to any flaming posts, but if anyone who has/has read
this book wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference
book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts.

K

What I would suggest is that you take some part of the book you
disagree with, look at the end of the Chapter for the supporting
bibliography materials, review those studies and then see if you can
find alternative published studies which support your side of the
story. Small animal clinical nutrition is still open to great debate,
especially among the Diplomates of the American College of Internal
Medicine and American College of Veterinary Nutrition. Often new
science uncovers new insights and teaches us new things. Perhaps you
can find some published study that is in opposition to SACN IV and we
can have an interesting debate.

"Karen M." wrote in message ...
Just an FYI -

I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

That is incorrect. It is correct that the founder of the Morris Animal
Foundation, the largest animal philanthropy in the US is Dr. Mark
Morris. It is also correct that Dr. Mark Morris, who invented
Prescription Diet k/d in 1948 to treat Buddy the first Seeing Eye dog
in the US, was also was the founder of Hill's - Mark Morris
Associates, the publisher of SACN IV and Hill's have ZERO connections.
MMA is now operated by Dr. Mark Morris Jr. the son of the founder. The
only surviving financial connection of any kind is that Hill's still
pays a royalty to the Morris Animal Foundation. That royalty has been
in existance since the agreement between Burton Hill and Mark Morris
in the early 50's.

To state that Hill's in any way has any control or any influence over
MMA is a complete laugh. You have to know Dr. Morris to understand
what a laughable matter that is.



2. An interestingly large number of contributors to the book as a whole,
and a majority of the contributors to the pet food sections work or
worked for either Hill's or MMI.

That is also entirely incorrect. The editors of the book may be MMA
employees and some like Dr. Roudebush are employees of Hill's, but
they are the editors, not the authors. The authors are listed in the
bibliography and I'm quite sure you observed that the bibliography
behind each chapter illustrates that the authors are the individuals
who know the most about that particular issue. For instance when you
look at Chapter 19 about renal diseas you will find a bibliography
containing 175 published studies by authors and researchers from
around the world. Of those 175 published studies, only 3 were authored
by a Hill's or MMA emplpoyee. Many more authors like Chew and
Remillard are frequently in opposition to Hill's.



3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams,
Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.

I think you need to recognize that this book was intended for
veterinarians who deal with all the clients who walk in the door. Thus
the vast majority of common foods are covered. It would take another
10 pound book to cover the tiny little niche food producers.
Nonetheless on pages 1074 - 1082 dozens of pet foods are covered -
probably 99% of the foods actually fed to pets. Additionally dealing
with specific food producers is not the critical factor in a book of
this type, it is designed to provide basic foundational knowledge
about small animal clinical nutrition. It is not designed to be a
reference book for pet foods, but rather a reference book for
nutrition. A veterinarian need not know that brand A has X level of
nutrient, s/he needs to know that nutrient X impacts a renal failure
animal in some manner. S/he can always find out what level nutrient X
is in any given food.



And, on a less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested
in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

I doubt the authors of the book can help you with this problem. The
facts are the facts, and the results of homemade diets are factually
problematic. You may not like the facts but the authors of the book
cannot account for your enmotional decisions. This is a book of facts
and science, not emotionally driven ideas from the fringe lunatic
arena based on internet fantasies and a goof ball in Australia.


As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really
looking forward to some unbiased, clinical information on different
types of pet diets.

And that is exaclty what you got. I would guess you are dissapointed
because you were looking for data to support what cannot be supported
in science, but can only be supported by opinions and internet
fantasies.


I won't respond to any flaming posts, but if anyone who has/has read
this book wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference
book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts.

K

What I would suggest is that you take some part of the book you
disagree with, look at the end of the Chapter for the supporting
bibliography materials, review those studies and then see if you can
find alternative published studies which support your side of the
story. Small animal clinical nutrition is still open to great debate,
especially among the Diplomates of the American College of Internal
Medicine and American College of Veterinary Nutrition. Often new
science uncovers new insights and teaches us new things. Perhaps you
can find some published study that is in opposition to SACN IV and we
can have an interesting debate.

From: "Karen M."

I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

Well well well, isn't that most interesting? It seems that when I posted this
a few weeks ago, Steve Crane called me a liar.

"Beginning in 1987, he served a four year term as Vice President and President
of American Association of Veterinary Nutrition. From 1994-2000 Dr. Frey served
on the Board of Directors for the Mark Morris Institute, an arm of Hill’s Pet
Nutrition which aims to promote nutritional education in small animals."

Lauren



________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

From: "Karen M."

I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

Well well well, isn't that most interesting? It seems that when I posted this
a few weeks ago, Steve Crane called me a liar.

"Beginning in 1987, he served a four year term as Vice President and President
of American Association of Veterinary Nutrition. From 1994-2000 Dr. Frey served
on the Board of Directors for the Mark Morris Institute, an arm of Hill’s Pet
Nutrition which aims to promote nutritional education in small animals."

Lauren



________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

GAUBSTER2 wrote:

No, that's not true. There are numerous "no name" brands that I have never
heard of in the book. Check out the appendix. Anybody else ever heard of
Wafcol??

Sure, available in the UK.


Joe, is it a major brand over there?

I don't know, I'm over here. :-)

I just popped the name into Google and a number of UK links popped up.

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

GAUBSTER2 wrote:

No, that's not true. There are numerous "no name" brands that I have never
heard of in the book. Check out the appendix. Anybody else ever heard of
Wafcol??

Sure, available in the UK.


Joe, is it a major brand over there?

I don't know, I'm over here. :-)

I just popped the name into Google and a number of UK links popped up.

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

Karen M. wrote:

Just an FYI -

I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

2. An interestingly large number of contributors to the book as a whole,
and a majority of the contributors to the pet food sections work or
worked for either Hill's or MMI.

3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams,
Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.

And, on a less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested
in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really
looking forward to some unbiased, clinical information on different
types of pet diets.

I won't respond to any flaming posts, but if anyone who has/has read
this book wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference
book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts.

K


BTW, this text that you seem to be looking down your nose at is used in
most of the veterinary schools for training purposes.

What unique qualifications do you have to be essentially trashing a
technical text on animal nutrition?

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

Karen M. wrote:

Just an FYI -

I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).

2. An interestingly large number of contributors to the book as a whole,
and a majority of the contributors to the pet food sections work or
worked for either Hill's or MMI.

3. Only large industry brands were studied in the book - Eukanuba/Iams,
Purina, Hill's, and Nutro.

And, on a less factual note (more my opinion) it made people interested
in making homemade diets look largely like unintelligent paranoid dolts.

As a whole, I was unimpressed with the pet food section. I was really
looking forward to some unbiased, clinical information on different
types of pet diets.

I won't respond to any flaming posts, but if anyone who has/has read
this book wants to rationally discuss their views on this reference
book, I would be interested to hear (read) your thoughts.

K


BTW, this text that you seem to be looking down your nose at is used in
most of the veterinary schools for training purposes.

What unique qualifications do you have to be essentially trashing a
technical text on animal nutrition?

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

PawsForThought wrote:

From: "Karen M."


I purchased the SACN, 4th edition recently for some research. A few
interesting things popped out (okay, one I checked on Google):

1. Mark Morris Institute (publisher and contributor) is an arm of Hill's
Pet Nutrition (http://www.vet.ksu.edu/index/awards/2002/frey.htm).


Well well well, isn't that most interesting? It seems that when I posted this
a few weeks ago, Steve Crane called me a liar.

"Beginning in 1987, he served a four year term as Vice President and President
of American Association of Veterinary Nutrition. From 1994-2000 Dr. Frey served
on the Board of Directors for the Mark Morris Institute, an arm of Hill’s Pet
Nutrition which aims to promote nutritional education in small animals."

Hey, enough with the conspiracy theories. :-)

Seems to me if nothing else Hill's is very active in the area of
feline/canine nutrition.

There are *numerous* authors contributing to that book. Are you
suggesting that somehow they are ALL getting kickbacks from Hill's to
twist their text around in such a way that makes Hill's products look good?

I think that may be a bit of a stretch.

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck