Outdoor cat poisoning - report back

In article ,
enlightened us with...

I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be entirely realistic
here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to their cats that they
put that time and energy in? No value judgements, just realism. Given that
cats are mostly seen as pets, not as primary emotional interests,
recommendations on how to care for them should be aimed at what the majority
will actually do, rather than what those who are most emotionally attached
to their cats will do, with or without recommendations from anyone.


Also a very valid point, and one of the reasons I always advise people to
have more than one cat. At least they entertain each other.

My cats are far less dependent on me than my Mom's cat is on her. And it
really shows.

--
--
~kaeli~
Can you be a closet claustrophobic?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message
nk.net...
In article ,
"Alison" wrote:

That's based on collective research hence the references to the
names. Apparently those are the behaviour problems that can
manifest
in cats kept inconfinemen

The point equalizer was making is that unneutered animals of course
are
going to display "problem" behaviours when confined, which makes
these
studies more than a wee bit suspect.

Those poor tailchasing beasts!


My point is that it doesn't specify here that unneteured cats were
used in all those studies , so a person conducting study of
unneutered cats kept confined say for breeding purposes perhaps
would only be interested in the results of the breeding and maybe
would not record behaviour problems such as escaping or mutilation.
Those behaviour traits are *collective * results of different studies
..
You asked for cites of just one study and I have given you
refernces to several . If you want to dismiss them so easily it's up
to you . I'd appreciate if someone here could reciprocate by
producing any studies and cites about US indoor/outdoor pet cat
fatalities and the age at death.etc
Alison

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
We're not talking about that here, we talking about the *BEST* care
of cats
by people who *ADORE* cats (or at least profess to adore cats).

um, we talking about indoor cats , we're talking about behaviour
problems that indoor cats can suffer from that are rarely seen in
indoor /outdoor cats. Does the knowledge of the owner and the care
commitment make a difference , yes it can make a difference but you
can't guarantee you can make every confined cat happy.

I've had
many cats over the many years of my life, and *NONE* have exhibited
*ANY*
behavior problems while in my care. Of course, every minute that
I'm home I
am interacting with my cats in some way (either playing with them or
petting
them), and when I'm not home they have (literally) hundreds of toys
to play
with and each other to play with.

which is what I/Odoor owners do too.

They spend most of their day sleeping,

Which is what a lot of I/Odoor cats do too and they also have the
choice to go out to .

and I would think sleeping in
air-conditioned comfort on a soft bed, with no worries about being
snuck up
upon by a predator would be more conducive to happiness.

Not every one has coyotes and eagles in their back yard.If they have
then the cats should be only allowed out under supervision.
Kim snoozes in the grass in the sun or in her shed . I don't think
she likely to be attacked by the pigeons though I 'm thinking of
taking in rescue battery hens and that might be a different matter!
Most I/O cats have a choice whether to go in or out.
There are good , mediocre and bad cat owners regardless of whether
their cat is indoor or I/O.
Alison

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
We're not talking about that here, we talking about the *BEST* care
of cats
by people who *ADORE* cats (or at least profess to adore cats).

um, we talking about indoor cats , we're talking about behaviour
problems that indoor cats can suffer from that are rarely seen in
indoor /outdoor cats. Does the knowledge of the owner and the care
commitment make a difference , yes it can make a difference but you
can't guarantee you can make every confined cat happy.

Yes I can, I have. I haven't yet had a cat with behavioral problems or one
that has been unhappy.

I've had
many cats over the many years of my life, and *NONE* have exhibited
*ANY*
behavior problems while in my care. Of course, every minute that
I'm home I
am interacting with my cats in some way (either playing with them or
petting
them), and when I'm not home they have (literally) hundreds of toys
to play
with and each other to play with.

which is what I/Odoor owners do too.

They spend most of their day sleeping,

Which is what a lot of I/Odoor cats do too and they also have the
choice to go out to .

and I would think sleeping in
air-conditioned comfort on a soft bed, with no worries about being
snuck up
upon by a predator would be more conducive to happiness.

Not every one has coyotes and eagles in their back yard.If they have
then the cats should be only allowed out under supervision.

But cats don't *stay* in their back yards. And even if you have cat fencing
so the cat does stay in the back yard you still can't keep out fleas, worms,
and other parasites that can make your cat ill.

Kim snoozes in the grass in the sun or in her shed . I don't think
she likely to be attacked by the pigeons though I 'm thinking of
taking in rescue battery hens and that might be a different matter!
Most I/O cats have a choice whether to go in or out.

And most children, if give the choice between candy or vegetables will
choose candy - that doesn't mean it's good for them and they should be
allowed to do it!

There are good , mediocre and bad cat owners regardless of whether
their cat is indoor or I/O.
Alison

No, you're wrong. There *are* good, mediocre and bad cat owners but whether
or not their cat is indoor or I/O is one of the things that determines
whether they are good, mediocre or bad cat owners.

Hugs,

CatNipped

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"
But we weren't talking about all those people who have pets "for the
children", we were talking about *you* and why *you* choose to put
your cats
in harm's way.

You said "A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners
actually
take the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. "
and Ashly replied "I think that's probably a very valid point. But
let's be entirely
realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
their
cats that they put that time and energy in?"

When you realised that Ashley had a valid point you decided to turn it
on to her ( or him?)
so perhaps you would like to take the opportunity to respond to that
point.
If every Northern American indoor cat owner is a good owner then how
come so many cats are declawed and end up dumped in shelters?
Alison

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"Mary" wrote in message
news:1112761256.e7dcb92a110be8aec438b066433d309d@t eranews...

I guess we have to rely on ethologists, behaviourists and
vets
who
have studied cats over the years. Some specific problems are
more
likely to be seen in cats kept in confinement such as self
mutilation
and chewing fabric.
This is from The Challenge of Contentment during Confinement
by
Dr
Sandra McCune
"Specific problems associated with confinement include
boredom,
aggression to people and to cats, fearfulness, behavioural
inhibition,
withdrawal, escape behaviour, poor reproductive success ,
anorexia
,
weight loss , tailchasing , stereotypes, fabric eating and
self
mutilation

Pfft. She's a Brit. It's the moronic kneejerk culture she grew
up in that shaped her "findings."


Not sure who you're refering to here , me or Dr McClune?
Alison

McCune. And she is not the first to use her credentials and her
research to validate and justify the preconceptions she had going
into the study. It is one of the least-well-kept secrets in her
field.

er it's not just her research hence the references to (Blackshaw
1985b, hart &hart 1985, Mellen 1992. Mcclune1992, Holmes 1993, Smith
et al , 1994 van den Bos and de Cock Buning 1992). Her lecture was
actually on how to improve the life of cats in confinement and
references must be cited when using other people's published research
or studies
Alison


And they're all British, raised with the mindset that cats ought
to be outside, a mindset that is based upon times that predate
the car.

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Alison" wrote in message
...

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

In fact an outdoor cat lives a *more* stressful life than an
indoor cat
due to territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people,
cars,
environmental noises - stress leads to a constellation of physical
and
psychological disorders.

Indoor cats can suffer from chronic stress and they can't escape
from it.
Alison

Oh what a lovely blanket statement - which has *NO* realtionship, however
distant, to the facts!


That never bothers Alison. In fact, she, and Steve G. appear to see it as
a Desired Tactic.

"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message
nk.net...
In article ,
"CatNipped" wrote:

I can *NOT*, however, understand going through what you went through and
*STILL* putting your cats at risk!

It was the cat that suffered.



Yes indeed. That does explain it. All Kagis had to do was
cry and decide that regardless, all his cats must be allowed
to roam.

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Ashley" wrote in message
...

No, dear, it's not actually (see I can do condescenion too).

*Very* good applause! You *can* learn *something*. It's just too bad
that you only apply what you learn when it's convenient for you.


Well, actually, she had been doing it for a long time before your
apparently offensive tone. *shaking my head*

"Alison" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"
But we weren't talking about all those people who have pets "for the
children", we were talking about *you* and why *you* choose to put
your cats
in harm's way.

You said "A cat can be perfectly happy indoors provided the owners
actually
take the time and energy to enrich the cat's life. "
and Ashly replied "I think that's probably a very valid point. But
let's be entirely
realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
their
cats that they put that time and energy in?"

When you realised that Ashley had a valid point you decided to turn it
on to her ( or him?)

When did I ever indicate that I "realised" Ashley had a valid point???!!! I
think you've mistaken me for someone with a lot less IQ points!!! Ashley
*HAS NO VALID ARGUMENTS*, which has been *MY* valid point during this whole
debate.

When she wrote "I think that's probably a very valid point. But let's be
entirely realistic here - how many cat owners are so singularly devoted to
their cats that they put that time and energy in?", I simply pointed out
that she had (finally!) stated her real reasons for allowing her cats to go
outside. Of course she denied that saying she wasn't a "typical" cat owner
and I can only say thank goodness for that!

Let's get real, as much as some people try to deny it, when we ascribe venal
behavior to others with no basis in fact, we are projecting our own
thoughts, feelings, and opinions onto them (classic example of our need for
self-justification of what we're doing even when it has been pointed out
that what we're doing is wrong - how many kids have you heard say, "But
Jimmy's mom let's him do this!").

so perhaps you would like to take the opportunity to respond to that
point.
If every Northern American indoor cat owner is a good owner then how
come so many cats are declawed and end up dumped in shelters?
Alison

Where are you reading these things that you are claiming I've written???!
Please provide quotes rather than making baseless accusations! *NOWHERE*
have I stated that "every Northern American indoor cat owner is a good
owner". *NOWHERE* have I stated that it's a good thing to declaw a cat (in
fact I have campaigned mightily against it, in my own community I'm actively
working to get the laws changed so that it becomes illegal to declaw a cat).

Just like Ashley you are now throwing out the ultimate troll-bait in a cats
newsgroup, the "declaw" issue. If that, and making false accusations, are
all that you are left to debate with, then face it sweetie, you've lost this
argument!

Hugs,

CatNipped