Crane, Gaubster, PhilP

Liz, if you're referring to me...I don't think I'm as knowledgable about feline
nutrition as Phil P. I do have a basic understanding of nutrition and know
what goes on in pet foods. However, I don't fall for the scare tactics of
people like Ann Martin either. I will also challenge somebody if I think they
are trying to "pull a fast one". Because I disagree w/ you on some things
doesn't mean that you or anybody else has to get personal.

Gaubster, Phil is not knowledgeable on feline nutrition, he just
copies the material he has at home. He has tons of books about cats
but he does not understand them. He copies those books into his posts
and once challenged, he goes into defensive mode because he simply
cannot explain the things he writes. If he were in fact knowledgeable
at all on feline nutrition, he´d be the first one to be strongly
advocating a raw diet. He was much more knowledgeable in the past but
Hill´s marketing somehow got to him. I haven´t read any of Ann
Martin´s posts yet as I just got back online and those threads are
long so I´ll read them when I have more time. But I can tell you that
whatever she says most likely holds true for those very cheap grocery
store brands. She´s not the only one saying it either. Check this if
you haven´t yet:

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79

Furthermore, cats are carnivores. Their digestive system is adapted to
digest meat and animal fats. Whatever you feed them that is not meat
or fats will stress their system to a greater or lesser extent and
result in malnourishment. Malnourishment has innumerous facets, it´s
not just the vitamin or mineral deficiency we commonly hear about.
Medical books state that 70% of all diseases affecting people are
caused by malnourishment, and those include diseases caused by
viruses, bacteria, fungi, metabolic disorders, mental disorders,
cancers, etc. You can expect the same for cats but to a much greater
extent since this artificial diet is way off their natural diet.

I understand most people cannot afford to feed raw or do not have the
time to prepare a raw diet. But if they would at least give their cats
ONE raw meal a week or a daily raw snack, that would do wonders for
their pet´s health.

My guess is you are dislexic.

My guess is you are dislexic.

(Liz) wrote in message . com...

"The "natural tocopherols" in many products labeled "preserved with
natural
tocopherols" have already been preserved with a synthetic antioxidant
by the
supplier before it gets to the manufacturer."

Absolutely not. Tocopherols are shipped in oxygen-free sealed
containers. Tocopherols are oils Phil. Liquid. You cannot ship them in
a paper bag.

The above is incorrect. There is only one source for bulk liquid
un-preserved tocopherols in the US. They produce enough to preserve
about 2 tons of pet food per year. All "natural" tocopherols in liquid
form are themselves preserved with an artificial antioxidant of one
kind or another. I would love to see your source for such completely
non preserved tocopherols.

(Liz) wrote in message . com...

"The "natural tocopherols" in many products labeled "preserved with
natural
tocopherols" have already been preserved with a synthetic antioxidant
by the
supplier before it gets to the manufacturer."

Absolutely not. Tocopherols are shipped in oxygen-free sealed
containers. Tocopherols are oils Phil. Liquid. You cannot ship them in
a paper bag.

The above is incorrect. There is only one source for bulk liquid
un-preserved tocopherols in the US. They produce enough to preserve
about 2 tons of pet food per year. All "natural" tocopherols in liquid
form are themselves preserved with an artificial antioxidant of one
kind or another. I would love to see your source for such completely
non preserved tocopherols.

If he were in fact knowledgeable
at all on feline nutrition, he´d be the first one to be strongly
advocating a raw diet. He was much more knowledgeable in the past but
Hill´s marketing somehow got to him.



So he "lost" knowledge, since you don't agree w/ him?

So you're advocating feeding cats dead birds, squirrels, etc? There are better
options especially since raw diets aren't neccessarily balanced in in terms of
the nutrients delivered. There are better options.

But I can tell you that
whatever she says most likely holds true for those very cheap grocery
store brands. She´s not the only one saying it either. Check this if
you haven´t yet:

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79

API has an agenda and is not an unbiased organization. I don't go for much of
what they tout. As for Ann Martin, she only sticks to her talking points and
isn't capable of rational thought. She jumps to wild conclusions that meant to
inspire fear and loathing in people that don't know better. She is only out to
profit off of people's fears. She, too, is paranoid and I've also found her to
be quite arrogant and defensive. She isn't a nice person and she, too, is
pushing an agenda--her own. Ann doesn't state that only the very cheap grocery
store brands are "bad", but that most all foods are bad. She doesn't grasp the
concept of how nutrients are more important than ingredients, either. But of
course, that's probably because that concept is complicated and not very
"sexy", therefore she isn't as likely to make money off of people's emotions
that way.

If he were in fact knowledgeable
at all on feline nutrition, he´d be the first one to be strongly
advocating a raw diet. He was much more knowledgeable in the past but
Hill´s marketing somehow got to him.



So he "lost" knowledge, since you don't agree w/ him?

So you're advocating feeding cats dead birds, squirrels, etc? There are better
options especially since raw diets aren't neccessarily balanced in in terms of
the nutrients delivered. There are better options.

But I can tell you that
whatever she says most likely holds true for those very cheap grocery
store brands. She´s not the only one saying it either. Check this if
you haven´t yet:

http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79

API has an agenda and is not an unbiased organization. I don't go for much of
what they tout. As for Ann Martin, she only sticks to her talking points and
isn't capable of rational thought. She jumps to wild conclusions that meant to
inspire fear and loathing in people that don't know better. She is only out to
profit off of people's fears. She, too, is paranoid and I've also found her to
be quite arrogant and defensive. She isn't a nice person and she, too, is
pushing an agenda--her own. Ann doesn't state that only the very cheap grocery
store brands are "bad", but that most all foods are bad. She doesn't grasp the
concept of how nutrients are more important than ingredients, either. But of
course, that's probably because that concept is complicated and not very
"sexy", therefore she isn't as likely to make money off of people's emotions
that way.

From: (Liz)
Date: 9/6/03 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

My guess is you are dislexic.


You really should run your posts through a spell-checker! This isn't the only
time I've noticed misspelled words in your posts. I usually overlook that sort
of thing since it's easy to get to typing so fast, but.....

From: (Liz)
Date: 9/6/03 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

My guess is you are dislexic.


You really should run your posts through a spell-checker! This isn't the only
time I've noticed misspelled words in your posts. I usually overlook that sort
of thing since it's easy to get to typing so fast, but.....

"Liz" wrote in message
om...
Liz, if you're referring to me...I don't think I'm as knowledgable about
feline
nutrition as Phil P. I do have a basic understanding of nutrition and
know
what goes on in pet foods. However, I don't fall for the scare tactics
of
people like Ann Martin either. I will also challenge somebody if I
think they
are trying to "pull a fast one". Because I disagree w/ you on some
things
doesn't mean that you or anybody else has to get personal.

Gaubster, Phil is not knowledgeable on feline nutrition, he just
copies the material he has at home.

You're just frustrated because you don't know how to apply your chemistry
set manual to living cats.... That's why you said you could dissolve calcium
oxalate uroliths in cats with.... WATER.... I still a get a laugh every time
I think about that! So does every vet I've told! LOL!


He has tons of books about cats
but he does not understand them.

I think you're projecting your failings onto me... I understand enough to
know you can't apply in vitro results to living animals like you do -- Like
your asinine theory about dissolving calcium oxalate!!! ROTFL!!! That
really proved how little you know about *living* cats! That wasn't simply a
mistake... That was pure ignorance! Stick to your test tubes, Einstien...
Cats are too complicated for you!


If he were in fact knowledgeable
at all on feline nutrition, he´d be the first one to be strongly
advocating a raw diet.

My knowledge is *precisly* why I *don't* advocate feeding cats raw diets,
Einstien! Unlike you, I researched *both* sides and found *no* compelling
evidence that raw food is healthier for cats and any benefits are not offset
by the risks and disadvantages. Neither has the mainstream veterinary
community....

If you were knowledge about feline nutrition, you wouldn't advocate raw
food!


He was much more knowledgeable in the past but
Hill´s marketing somehow got to him.

No it was the SCIENCE behind Hills diets that got to me!

Another one of Liz's dissertations snipped


If I missed any of your other posts - don't flatter yourself by thinking I
"evaded" answering them... I don't have time to play with you... I gotta
make that "Machiavellian" money, you know.... May be it can't buy
happiness - but it sure makes the misery comfortable! LOL! ..