What Price For Kitty?

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2005-02-19, Diane L. Schirf penned:

Native Americans used sphagnum moss and seeds high in estrogen to
prevent
pregnancies as well.

There are seeds high in estrogen? Interesting.

Phytoestrogens - soy, yam, flax seeds, walnuts, etc.

An natural abortifacient is tansy (black cohosh as well).

-L.

On 2005-02-21, -L. penned:

Meghan Noecker wrote:

It is one rare case I would be willing to accept, but I hate seeing
that and health of the mother brought up in every argument as if it
is more common than irresponsible people getting pregnant.

Do you seriously think that the only people getting abortions are the
irresponsible? I hate to tell you but birth control fails - often.
Especially barrier methods. And the "natural family planning" method
you want to teach teens has the worse failure rate of all. An
estimated 43% of women will have at least one abortion by the time
they are 45 years old. (http://www.guttmacher.org) Do you believe
that 43% of the female population isn't using birth control?

I think her point is that by having sex, you take responsibility for the
consequences. She feels that it is irresponsible to have sex if you are
not willing to accept pregnancy as a consequence. It makes sense
because she sees a fetus as a child. It's certainly something I've
thought about. I am married. I do not feel that I am financially or
emotionally ready to have a child, and I may never be. I'm a control
freak, and the idea of having something take over my body in the way a
pregnancy does has zero appeal. But I still have sex. We practice
safer sex, but what would I do if I were pregnant? I think it's
important to ask the question, but I think it's impossible for me to
answer, especially when I suspect that your body starts influencing your
brain in these matters once you're pregnant. Keeping a baby you don't
want, well, that sounds like a nice recipe for child abuse. So does
adoption - fostering, as Meghan's story (about her SIL I believe?)
suggested, and it would require that I put my body through significant
changes, some permanent. I think I know what I'd do, but I hope I never
have to make the decision. None of the options are good. I don't see a
fetus too young to survive on its own as a person or a child, though.
It has potential, yes, but to me it is simply a part of the mother's
body. Well, maybe not simply, but if I had to give a simple answer,
that's what I'd say.

I've never heard the statistic of 43% by 45yo. That sounds really high,
but I don't have the time to check the source right now. I would not be
surprised if 43% of the female population has made some poor choices in
birth control, like not insisting the guy withdraw instantly when
wearing a condom or taking the pill inconsistently.


--
monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully

pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Thanks Lesley! I know what you mean - Jessie, who turns 5 this year, is
still very much a kitten. Here's a movie of her chasing the red dot
greeble: http://www.possibleplaces.com/jessie_movie/



Brilliant! I am getting a telepathic message from my owners "we WANT a
red dot greeble of our own!"

Lesley

Slave to the Fabulous Furballs

"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message
...
I was suggesting that they would know when they were definitely *not*
safe. And avoid sex on those days at least. It's bad enough playing
roulette, but why do it if you know the bullet is in the chamber?

Also, temperature is only one clue.


Yes, I know. After all the trouble I went through to get pregnant, I feel
like I know more about fertility and menstrual cycles than a gynocologist.
Not to gross out the guys, but there's the feel of your cervix, cervical
fluid, etc. But, you really can't do that type of charting without taking
your basal body temp, unless you are using Ovulation Predictor Kits.
There's also the added complications of: your cycle being thrown off
(stress, illness, travel, etc, can do this), and not having regular cycles
to begin with. And, a woman is usually much more "in the mood" when she is
ovulating, makes it harder to avoid sex.
--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message
...
What I am saying is that abortion is comparable to us giving up on
finding homes for cats and just go ahead and euthanize them now. I
never said that anybody does that. In fact, that is why I am so
surprised from the reaction on this group. People here will attack
anybody who wants to breed (and add to the cats being euthanized), but
many don't see any problem with abortion. It's basically the same
thing. Healthy babies being killed for lack of homes.

Unfortunately, thousands of cats are being euthanized for lack of homes.
This has NOTHING to do with abortion, and is completely an apples and
oranges situation.
You seem to forget that nine months in between that the woman has to carry
this baby. If the pregnancy is unwanted, do you think she will take care of
herself and the baby? What if she is messed up and depressed about the
whole situation? What if there are factors such as an abusive boyfriend, or
incredibly strict parents who would throw her out if they found out about
it?
Also, you seem to be forgetting about the pain of having to give up a child
for adoption. Like it's so easy: here you go, take my baby. Many women
would rather have an abortion than put themselves through that.
I am of the "safe, legal, and rare" mindset, in case you were wondering.
However, I do think there should be more counseling of all available
options, including adoption, and post-abortion counseling. It is not an
easy choice to make, but I believe women should have the choice.

--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

snip

Do you seriously think that the only people getting abortions are
the
irresponsible? I hate to tell you but birth control fails - often.
Especially barrier methods. And the "natural family planning"
method
you want to teach teens has the worse failure rate of all. An
estimated 43% of women will have at least one abortion by the time
they are 45 years old. (http://www.guttmacher.org) Do you believe
that 43% of the female population isn't using birth control?

I think her point is that by having sex, you take responsibility for
the
consequences. She feels that it is irresponsible to have sex if you
are
not willing to accept pregnancy as a consequence.

Oh, I see.

It makes sense
because she sees a fetus as a child. It's certainly something I've
thought about. I am married. I do not feel that I am financially or
emotionally ready to have a child, and I may never be. I'm a control
freak, and the idea of having something take over my body in the way
a
pregnancy does has zero appeal. But I still have sex. We practice
safer sex, but what would I do if I were pregnant? I think it's
important to ask the question, but I think it's impossible for me to
answer, especially when I suspect that your body starts influencing
your
brain in these matters once you're pregnant. Keeping a baby you
don't
want, well, that sounds like a nice recipe for child abuse.

Absolutely.

So does
adoption - fostering, as Meghan's story (about her SIL I believe?)
suggested, and it would require that I put my body through
significant
changes, some permanent.

Yep. But as an adoptive Mom, let me tell you it is the most beautiful
gift anyone can give to their child. I couldn't carry a baby to term
and then choose to place him/her with an adoptive family. I thank my
son's Birthmom every day for being strong enough to do so. I think
with open and semi-open adoption, it is more of a win-win situation -
the birthmom/birthfamily gets to know the child is ok, safe and happy.
But like you said, the physical/emotional ramifications for the
Birthmom are tremendous.

FWIW, most Birthmoms and women who choose abortion already have at
least one child and cite financial reasons for why they make the choice
they did.

I think I know what I'd do, but I hope I never
have to make the decision. None of the options are good. I don't
see a
fetus too young to survive on its own as a person or a child, though.
It has potential, yes, but to me it is simply a part of the mother's
body. Well, maybe not simply, but if I had to give a simple answer,
that's what I'd say.

I agree.


I've never heard the statistic of 43% by 45yo. That sounds really
high,
but I don't have the time to check the source right now. I would not
be
surprised if 43% of the female population has made some poor choices
in
birth control, like not insisting the guy withdraw instantly when
wearing a condom or taking the pill inconsistently.



Well, obviously many people just have unprotected sex. But a lot of
unwanted pregnancies result in situations where people use birth
control consistently, especially barrier methods like the diaphragm. I
know more than one diaphragm baby.

-L.

"-L." wrote in
oups.com:

Here's Tosh when she was younger:

http://groups.msn.com/idontmindsComp.../shoebox.msnw?
action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9

She's terminally ill with an inoperable tumor. :*(



Such a cutie! I'm so sorry about her illness, that is so hard.

--Catherine

"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message
ink.net...
In article ,
(Meghan Noecker) wrote:

Why do you assume that the biological sex drive has anything to do with
whether or not the partner gives a damn? A lot of it's just "I want to
put
my
thing in a hole" or "I want my hole filled." Especially as teenagers.
Sorry
to be so blunt, but from what I've seen of teenage behavior, it's true.


So we are no better than the strays in the street.

Only if you are a teenager. I know I'm not.

--

What do you mean here?

Hum. . . I guess I fall into that cat-agory of people who should not
own pets. I live (barely) pay check to pay check, but I have a cat and
have always had at least one cat. I also care for a small colony of
feral cats. These ferals are now on a TNR waiting list and I have had
to ask for a bit of assistance with their food, if they have what these
kitties are used to eating. If they don't have the same brand, well,
I'll find another way, because the animals always eat even when I
don't. They always seem to eat better than I do, even in the best of
times!

My house cat is 11 years old and has not had any serious illnesses, but
at her advanced age I know it won't stay that way. What will I do if a
major medical problems comes up? I will deal with it the best way I
can. The same as I have dealt with all the other financial obligation
I have had to deal with over my lifetime. I'm in my late 50's so I've
dealt with a lot!

I have had my share of animals that have had to be put down because of
terminal illness, poisoning, what have you. I have worked for animal
shelters where it was one of my duties to chose the most adoptable
puppies and kittens and then assist when it was time to put the
unfortunate ones down. It is NEVER easy, not even when the situation
calls for such drastic measures (and I don't mean because the animal
just happened to be born!)

PEOPLE are the BIGGEST CAUSE for animal over population in this country
or any other as far as that goes and until all people take
responsibility for their pets, the problem will not end. I mean, what
is so damned hard about having your pet spayed or neutered? Yes, it
can be expensive, but there are a good many low cost clinics available.
The spay/neuter issue is the one thing people need to allow for when
they get a new pet; most shelters make it mandatory and even offer
reduced fees. Breeders of purebred cats make it mandatory for all the
pet quality animals they sell. Policing these requirements is a
problem, but there are ways it can be done. Some breeders won't even
allow a pet quality kitten or puppy go to their new home until after
they have been fixed.

The feral colony I am caring for would not be there if some PERSON
hadn't abandoned their INTACT pet. Instead of burning all this energy
discussing how much money one would spend to save their beloved pet,
why not expend some energy discussing how you can best assist in the
effort to establish low cost spay/neuter clinics where you live and in
locating and caring for the feral animals in your neighborhoods as well
as establishing a TNR Program to manage the over-population problem?

For those of you already involved in these efforts, KUDOS to you!


Hemma

On 20 Feb 2005 10:52:27 GMT, (Meghan
Noecker) wrote:

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:20:52 -0500, Orchid
wrote:

On 19 Feb 2005 09:40:49 GMT, (Meghan
Noecker) wrote:


Well, that sounds like promotion to me. You want to keep it going.

Damn straight. I am an adult woman, not a brood mare. Forced
pregnancy is the most horrific thing I can think of to go through.
Women have *always* had the choice to terminate pregnancies --
prehistoric medicine women have been found buried with their tools of
the trade -- which always include natural abortifacents. The idea
that now, when we have *safe* abortion, we would ban it is sickening
to me.


That may be great for you, but I am sickened by the millions of babies
being killed, when it is so much easier to simply prevent the
pregnancies in the first place.

Birth control is *everyone's* friend. However, if my
carefully followed birth control regimen fails, I want the option of
terminating a pregnancy safely.
Do you really think that abortions will magically stop if they
are made illegal again? All that will happen is that women with money
will go to Canada or Europe for their abortion and poor women will die
in back alleys from coathanger abortions or will die in agony because
they attempted to use herbs and didn't know how dangerous herbs can
be.

I do not understand why this topic is treated so differently from
other issues. For example, if somebody gets drunk, drives a car, and
kills somebody; they are legally responsible for that death. They
didn't intend to kill somebody, but they got drunk and drove, knowing
the risks.

But no one is life support for anyone else in that situation.
No one's body is being used against their will.

But somebody has sex, knowing that sex causes pregnancy,
and they are not responsible for their actions. It was just bad luck,
and now we get rid of it because we don't want it.

So it's better to force a woman to carry an unwanted fetus to
term? Do you feel this way about rape victims? After all, it's not
the fetus' fault its sire was a rapist..... How about incest? How
about girls whose bodies cannot handle pregnancy? How about *women*
whose bodies cannot handle pregnancy? How about women who cannot
mentally handle pregnancy?
What about fetuses with horrible, crippling birth defects?
What about fetuses with genetic diseases? What about fetuses that are
profoundly retarded? What about Down's?

Why is it that we talk about forced pregnancies, yet most pregancies
resulted from consensual sex. On ither words, they were not forced.
The person did a risky behavior, and now somebody else gets to die
because of it.

So, in your world, sex is procreative only. Are you Catholic?
]


Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid