Inappropriate toileting... I'm at the end of my rope!

Hello, all....

It's been a couple years since I've done more than occasionally read
here (I'm an old, old, OLD timer from when there was just
rec.pets.cats, though I recognize so few names now).

I am posting in a last-ditch cry for help. After years of being the
"cat therapist" all my friends turn to... I may have been beat.

Maui is a goofy seal-point Siamese, adopted from my vet a year and a
half ago after Lenny and Lucy passed away. He came with a partner,
Blue. They had been left to my vet after ther previous person died.
Other than rather stressed at all the changes in their lives, they were
a pair of healthy 7 year old Meezers.

For a year and a half, we've been trying to get Maui to use the
litterbox. He does... but he also uses the apartment carpet. And he's
launched his latest escalation of this behaviour recently.

He both urinates and defecates in random spots. Despite the fact that
there have been 2 or 3 completely clean litterboxes out for him. He
goes for weeks or a few months without doing this, we think we've
"fixed" it, then the puddles, or worse, just the smells we have to
track down, start again.

We have ruled out organic causes. He's been to the vet over and over.
He's STAYED at the vet for 2 weeks, then lived in a bathroom for a
week, with perfect litter-box behaviour then soaked the carpet again.

My vet, who is a Guelph and Cornell-trained cat specialist and a damn
good cat shrink herself, has been to my home herself and sat and
watched us, inspected the litterboxes, checked for things she might see
as stresses.... nothing obvious. She said my litter boxes are cleaner
than hers are some days. They're the biggest I could get. We've tried
them covered and uncovered.

No urine crystals or infection. No apparent pain, masses, tumours...
short of running him through an MRI which I can't do, we can't find
anything.

We've tried Feliway, but this is not spraying/urine marking, it's flat
on the floor, often in the middle of the room.

He's been on Prozac. He's presently on Clomicalm. Both may or may not
have helped temporarily - maybe they did or maybe he just decided to
behave for a bit - but any effect definitely didn't stick.

We don't yell, scold, or freak out at him, rather we try to reward him
when he uses the litter box, if we're around. He seems to appreciate
it and will go through spells of coming to "get" me to watch him use
the box and then taking a treat. But it also doesn't "stick".

The only other thing is he (and his friend Blue) occasionally gets
vetacortyl shots, as every few months he has a flare-up of something
that causes them to groom patches out of their fur. The toileting
problem hasn't been noticeably tied to this other issue, but again,
it's hard to tell. Blue doesn't seem to have this issue.

Last night, he soaked my office floor right behind me while I was
sitting right there! I didn't hear he was in the room until he started
scraping the carpet to "bury" it. This morning, the puddle was outside
our bedroom door as we got up, fresh and warm.
Like he waited for the alarm, went out the door far enough to pee, and
came back to bed as we were getting up.

I've used enough Nature's miracle to fill a swimming pool by now, and I
am about to get kicked out of my home with all 4 of my cats by a very
unhappy and usually very tolerant partner....

Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing
this?

I'm about to give in, conclude he just plain doesn't want to be here
(can't handle the multi-cat life with its inevitable scuffles and
disputes) and return him to the vet. This would not be disatrous for
him, they came with a "bring them back if you ever need to" guarantee
and my vet has offered many times - I just hate to give up, and I had
to separate him from his pal even though they don't seem that attached.
Plus he can be a nice cat when he tries....

Sorry to go on so long. I just really am at a loss, after 13 years of
being "the cat lady" to everyone who knows me.

Thanks,

Johanna
With a Furrsome (presently) Foursome of Panda-ov-Toes, Sprout!, Maui
and Blue...

In article .com,
enlightened us with...

Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing
this?


I have no idea, but I hope you get it worked out.
I do have a relative who has this little dog who simply cannot be potty
trained for whatever reason (probably my relative's fault, but who knows).
The dog just doesn't "get" it.
You know what they do?
The dog wears a diaper -- one of those diapers for dogs in heat, with a human
pantyliner in it.

Just a thought, even if it's more amusing thinking about your cat running
around in a diaper than an actual feasible "solution".
Good luck.

--
--
~kaeli~
The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully
recovered.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

On Wed, 4 May 2005 07:47:03 -0500, kaeli
wrote:


Just a thought, even if it's more amusing thinking about your cat running
around in a diaper than an actual feasible "solution".
Good luck.


If I put a diaper on Carey, someone would be removing it. The other
cat, Carey herself, one of the dogs. I just can't fathom how that
could possibly be a solution!

Pee on the sofa this morning, after 1.5 good weeks :-( I am not a
happy 24/7 laundry maid.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album

She said my litter boxes are cleaner
than hers are some days.

Is it possible that your litter boxes are TOO clean? Sometimes there
needs to be a little smell to remind them what the box is for.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

"the Furrsome Foursome" wrote in message
oups.com

I'm about to give in, conclude he just plain doesn't want to be here
(can't handle the multi-cat life with its inevitable scuffles and
disputes) and return him to the vet. This would not be disatrous for
him, they came with a "bring them back if you ever need to" guarantee
and my vet has offered many times - I just hate to give up, and I had
to separate him from his pal even though they don't seem that attached.
Plus he can be a nice cat when he tries....

Sorry to go on so long. I just really am at a loss, after 13 years of
being "the cat lady" to everyone who knows me.//

When I got Robbie, he came with a history of "middening", which is where
a cat defecates to try and establish his right to use a territory.
Basically, Robbie would just about anywhere - even in front of you. He's
a very "sensitive" cat, very jumpy, as he had an horrendous abouse
history before I got him - the abuse was one of the reasons he came to
Cats Protection.

Because he came into a quiet house, with one other cat and didn't have
to compete for his right over a territory, his middening behaviour
stopped. He now lives on his own with my mom and dad, and his litter box
habits are immaculate.

Has your cat been "mugged" by one of the other cats as he uses the
litter box, making him wary about using it? If you're using an open box,
try a closed one where he feels more secure, or if you're using a closed
one, try an open one where he can see what is going on.

Have you tried changing the type of litter you use? My cat Tiger refuses
point blank to use anything pine based, Robbie won't use anything clay
based. Neither cat likes to use scented litter and both use un-scented
"Yesterdays News" happily.

Maybe he just really wants a home of his own with no other cats.

It really does sound like to me that it is a territory thing - where is
he in the pecking order of the household?

Helen M
Have you tried changing the litter type?


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Hiya - well, nice to know I'm at least not alone!

I have indeed thought it is a territory, or territory/anxiety thing. I
right now have two "pairs" of cats. Panda and Sprout, who used to be
half of a cuddly foursome, and Maui and Blue, who came as a pair after
Lenny and Lucy both passed away. There is definitely a two-and-two
dynamic. "Pecking order" is hard to peg, but wherever he is, I guess
he's not happy. He has moments of trying to challenge Panda, who I
think is really Top Cat here, and then other moments of letting teeny,
skittish little Blue push him away from his food and he's fine with
that.

Maui and Blue, prior to my house, spent their entire lives in a one
bedroom apartment with one little old lady. They never saw other
animals and they had never seen *men*, and I have one of those too.
Maui's definitely skittish *at times* - but dang it all, we had a Great
Dane visit for a few days over the holidays and he thought she was the
greatest thing ever and followed her everywhere - so he is not
categorically intimidated by new or strange animals/people.

I have suspected it is a passive-aggressive reaction to my partner.
Maui appears to really seek out Adam's attention at times and then
other times Adam does something and Maui runs away. By "does
something" I don't mean assaults the cat... I mean he sneezes, or
laughs out loud, or turns the radio on, or just gets up and walks to
another room too fast. He's a heavy man, occasionally clumsy, and I
think just startles the cats sometimes. Or maybe he just ignores Maui
at the wrong moment - last night's and this mornings incidents were
timed within minutes of Adam coming home and getting up for work,
respectively, like Maui was looking to attract someone's attention at a
time when we were otherwise busy.

As to other litter box behaviour, Sprout is a boisterous little brat
with a sense of humour, and has had to be actively discouraged from
ambushing other litter box users, which she seems to think is fun.
But it's been over a year since we've caught her doing that and she
prefers to assault Blue, who we've never had cause to suspect in any
incidents more serious than, um, "hangers on" following her out of the
box. And Panda is grumpy and will hassle Maui over food, or sit in a
door and kindof dare him to walk past her - but again, that seems to
have lessened and the toileting has gotten worse.

We've tried a couple of different litters but I'm nervous about putting
any other cats off the box, as we use wheat litter to avoid their and
my own allergies to the clay dust. We've tried the boxes covered and
uncovered. And I don't think they could possibly be *too* clean. I
scoop at least once and sometimes twice a day, but with 4 cats somone
will inevitably run right in and use it. I cannot add 4-boxes-plus-one
to this apartment - it is physically too small. I've gotten to 3, and
the third one will sit for days, unused by ANY of the cats, believe it
or not. I've tried varying box heights, sizes, configurations and
positions. I moved a box right over one of the first carpet messes -
and he went right beside it. I moved it back and just cleaned the
carpet, and he found a completely different spot to go.

I have at times isolated Maui for days at a time with his own box in
our spare bathroom. He will sometimes go a day or more without using
the box, and when I let him out, he'll go on the carpet.... OR he'll go
right to one of the other boxes and use it! At another time after
isolation, he HAD been using the box in the bathroom, consistently for
a few days. Then ran out and went on the carpet anyway. He screams
the whole time he's in the bathroom so it is not feasible for him to
live in there indefinitely. Blue also gets upset when he's locked away
and screams OUTside the bathroom.

I am getting close to the conclusion that he just can't cope with
something about the dynamic here. I feel terrible about losing him,
even though my brain knows that my vet will keep him as a clinic cat.
I feel bad about separating him from Blue, too, but she will be OK
without him - she is VERY people-attached and Maui is just a familiar
pal to her but she'll ignore him if Adam or I am around and sometimes
just hang out on her own regardless. She doesn't seem to miss him when
he's not around, though she does cling for a bit when he comes back
after an absence, then settle back to herself again. He might miss her
more, as he's not as people-social. I'd rather get rid of the carpet
but replacing the flooring in a 1500 sq foot rental we hope to leave in
a year would not be feasible. The landlord would only replace with
more carpet - at our expense - and if I have to do that I'm only doing
it ONCE (and cleaning like hell to avoid that, anyway).

*sigh*... he may have to resign himself to being a clinic cat. he will
still be in a multi-cat place, with other *males* even but the vet
claims she has well-sealed floors and lots of cleaning staff (her other
cats are at her shop for the same reason, what's one more?)

Thanks,

Johanna

Hmmm. Maybe your partner needs to carry treats/and or be "Feliway scented"?

I have suspected it is a passive-aggressive reaction to my partner.
Maui appears to really seek out Adam's attention at times and then
other times Adam does something and Maui runs away. By "does
something" I don't mean assaults the cat... I mean he sneezes, or
laughs out loud, or turns the radio on, or just gets up and walks to
another room too fast. He's a heavy man, occasionally clumsy, and I
think just startles the cats sometimes. Or maybe he just ignores Maui
at the wrong moment - last night's and this mornings incidents were
timed within minutes of Adam coming home and getting up for work,
respectively, like Maui was looking to attract someone's attention at a
time when we were otherwise busy.

As to other litter box behaviour, Sprout is a boisterous little brat
with a sense of humour, and has had to be actively discouraged from
ambushing other litter box users, which she seems to think is fun.
But it's been over a year since we've caught her doing that and she
prefers to assault Blue, who we've never had cause to suspect in any
incidents more serious than, um, "hangers on" following her out of the
box. And Panda is grumpy and will hassle Maui over food, or sit in a
door and kindof dare him to walk past her - but again, that seems to
have lessened and the toileting has gotten worse.

We've tried a couple of different litters but I'm nervous about putting
any other cats off the box, as we use wheat litter to avoid their and
my own allergies to the clay dust. We've tried the boxes covered and
uncovered. And I don't think they could possibly be *too* clean. I
scoop at least once and sometimes twice a day, but with 4 cats somone
will inevitably run right in and use it. I cannot add 4-boxes-plus-one
to this apartment - it is physically too small. I've gotten to 3, and
the third one will sit for days, unused by ANY of the cats, believe it
or not. I've tried varying box heights, sizes, configurations and
positions. I moved a box right over one of the first carpet messes -
and he went right beside it. I moved it back and just cleaned the
carpet, and he found a completely different spot to go.

I have at times isolated Maui for days at a time with his own box in
our spare bathroom. He will sometimes go a day or more without using
the box, and when I let him out, he'll go on the carpet.... OR he'll go
right to one of the other boxes and use it! At another time after
isolation, he HAD been using the box in the bathroom, consistently for
a few days. Then ran out and went on the carpet anyway. He screams
the whole time he's in the bathroom so it is not feasible for him to
live in there indefinitely. Blue also gets upset when he's locked away
and screams OUTside the bathroom.

I am getting close to the conclusion that he just can't cope with
something about the dynamic here. I feel terrible about losing him,
even though my brain knows that my vet will keep him as a clinic cat.
I feel bad about separating him from Blue, too, but she will be OK
without him - she is VERY people-attached and Maui is just a familiar
pal to her but she'll ignore him if Adam or I am around and sometimes
just hang out on her own regardless. She doesn't seem to miss him when
he's not around, though she does cling for a bit when he comes back
after an absence, then settle back to herself again. He might miss her
more, as he's not as people-social. I'd rather get rid of the carpet
but replacing the flooring in a 1500 sq foot rental we hope to leave in
a year would not be feasible. The landlord would only replace with
more carpet - at our expense - and if I have to do that I'm only doing
it ONCE (and cleaning like hell to avoid that, anyway).

*sigh*... he may have to resign himself to being a clinic cat. he will
still be in a multi-cat place, with other *males* even but the vet
claims she has well-sealed floors and lots of cleaning staff (her other
cats are at her shop for the same reason, what's one more?)

Thanks,

Johanna

"the Furrsome Foursome" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hiya - well, nice to know I'm at least not alone!

I have indeed thought it is a territory, or territory/anxiety thing.

Hi Johanna,

It sounds as though you have indeed done just about everything possible to
make things work. Thank you for posting your experience in such detail, it
gives us a comprehensive picture of what is happening and makes it easier to
come up with possible solutions. I have some thoughts which I hope are
helpful.

I agree with you that it is highly likely a combination of territorial
issues plus anxiety (since both Blue and Maui exhibit fur-pulling behaviour
as you mentioned in your first post, this is another sign of intense
stress). The problem has been going on for quite some time and it does sound
as though the best course of action would be to separate the cats, but I do
not think that removing Maui and making him a clinic cat at your vet's will
resolve the problem for him. He will still be stressed and while it is
commendable that your vet is willing to accept "inappropriate" peeing at the
clinic, he will still be unhappy. The stressors of other animals, animals in
distress, people, men etc. will not have resolved and the comings and goings
at a vet clinic are a lot more stressful than the situation Maui is in now.
If this were my situation, I would try to find a quiet and gentle home for
Blue *and* Maui with a single woman. I know, I know, it's not easy to
re-home adult cats, but it can be done with time and patience and both you
and your partner have demonstrated that you have tons of both.

....snipped...

There is definitely a two-and-two
dynamic. "Pecking order" is hard to peg, but wherever he is, I guess
he's not happy. He has moments of trying to challenge Panda, who I
think is really Top Cat here, and then other moments of letting teeny,
skittish little Blue push him away from his food and he's fine with
that.

In the meantime, is it possible to create two territories in your home - one
for each pair to reduce the stressors as much as possible, so that Maui can
start feeling safer?


Maui and Blue, prior to my house, spent their entire lives in a one
bedroom apartment with one little old lady. They never saw other
animals and they had never seen *men*, and I have one of those too.

....snipped...

I have suspected it is a passive-aggressive reaction to my partner.

....snipped...


I am getting close to the conclusion that he just can't cope with
something about the dynamic here. I feel terrible about losing him,
even though my brain knows that my vet will keep him as a clinic cat.
I feel bad about separating him from Blue, too, but she will be OK
without him - she is VERY people-attached and Maui is just a familiar
pal to her but she'll ignore him if Adam or I am around and sometimes
just hang out on her own regardless. She doesn't seem to miss him when
he's not around, though she does cling for a bit when he comes back
after an absence, then settle back to herself again. He might miss her
more, as he's not as people-social.

The dynamic between them as you describe it is the reason I would re-home
them together.

....snipped...

*sigh*... he may have to resign himself to being a clinic cat. he will
still be in a multi-cat place, with other *males* even but the vet
claims she has well-sealed floors and lots of cleaning staff (her other
cats are at her shop for the same reason, what's one more?)

See above why I do not think this is a good idea nor do I think it would be
fair to Maui.

While not the same situation, I can relate. I rescued a starving and very
sick stray last year. She pulled through and metamorphosed into an
affectionate, healthy, and playful kitty from an emaciated, scared, and
skittish one. I was determined that with careful introductions things would
be just fine between her and the resident kitties. Unfortunately, the
dynamics between them were extremely stressed from the beginning. After
months of trying just about everything, I had to continue keeping them
segregated and finally came to the conclusion that she would be happier in a
home as an only cat (she had been the only animal in her previous two
homes). I interviewed umpteen potential adopters until I found exactly who I
was looking for. Emma is now a happy and thriving cat and her new human
adores her. It was very difficult to let her go, but I knew what she needed
and that she deserved as stress-free a life as possible.

I hope that you will reconsider placing her at your vet's. By word of mouth,
asking everyone you know, placing posters (with photos of the two) in
unusual places (for example, I used the message boards of several
professional associations) and being very clear about what and who you are
looking for, you will, in time, find someone wonderful for them.

In the meantime, if it is possible in your home for them to have a territory
of their own, things should settle to more tolerable levels for all
concerned.

I hope this helps.

M.

Thanks,

Johanna

Actually, though, he lived at the vet for quite some time before I got
him... and my adoption "contract" to which I agreed was, if there are
any problems, he will go back to that vet. He has already lived there
for an extended visit ( 2 weeks) during a particularly bad spell and
exhibited NO inappropriate or stress behaviour while there.

Since being with me in general he is healthier, fatter and more mellow
than with his previous owner, and when visiting the vet he likes to
tour around and hang out with the staff.

Also - the lick dermatitis is allergic, or at least partly so. They
had it in their previous home and living at the clinic and it responds
immediately to a minimal dose of vetacortyl, clears up in a couple of
days and stays cleared for months. Food changes would be best, but
finicky and underweight Siamesees that they are, we haven't been able
to find something they WILL eat that solves it.

I'm not talking about dumping him in an uncaring clinic to be just one
more stray underfoot. Dr. W. has known these cats since they were
born. She had an agreement with a client to either re-home or take
care of Maui and Blue, and was paid out of their former person's estate
to do so. She and her staff are all female and Maui loves them. She
lives in her clinic. Or, her clinic is in her house, we're sometimes
not sure which it is! Cats, exams and surgeries downstairs, husband, 7
housecats a squirrel and I think a bird upstairs. Her clinic cats
have their own room and the run of the reception area complete with
leather sofas and a 6 x 3 x6 foot high cat jungle installation in a
huge glassed in window that's a complete squirrel-watching
entertainment centre.

She regularly takes in, rehabilitates and shelters and adopts out
unwanted cats in addition to her vet practice, expenses out of her own
pocket, but the deal is they come back to her if they can't be lived
with. She may re-home them if that's appropriate. I know he won't
just be put down for being a problem.

We shall see. She's asked if I can keep him through next weekend as
she'd want to quarantine him as a re-admit regardless and her kennel is
full right now. My man is attached enough to him to be reluctant to
let him go despite the frustration, too. Unfortunately, our apartment
is ppretty "open concept" except the bathrooms, so it may be back into
the bathroom for a little time out for him. And another gallon of
nature's miracle with a valium chaser for me!

Thanks,

Johanna

the Furrsome Foursome wrote:
Can ANYONE suggsest ANYTHING I might be missing, that could be doing
this?

I'm about to give in, conclude he just plain doesn't want to be here
(can't handle the multi-cat life with its inevitable scuffles and
disputes) and return him to the vet. Thanks,

Johanna

A truth in life is: Problems scale themselves to our maximum ability to
solve them. You've met your match. You know it. You're environment is not
agreeable with this particular furry food processor. Turn him in.

One other thing. If your carpet is covering genuine wood floors, repeated
****ing in any location WILL blacken the wood and make each wood strip
shrink away from adjoining strips. This kind of damage was apparent in a
neighbor's home when they changed their carpeting. About two thousand
dollars worth of damage.