Caring about wild cats

"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, Mark Earnest exclaimed (10/31/2009 6:04 PM):
"jmc" wrote in message
...
Suddenly, without warning, Mark Earnest exclaimed (10/30/2009 10:29 PM):

Man does just fine without predators. Why shouldn't cats?

We overpopulate the earth terribly and millions are dying of starvation
and disease. How is that doing fine?


I've watched deer populations in isolated pockets go from healthy
individuals, to tons of deer that seem to get scrawnier every year, to a
decline in the number I see. I've seen rabbits overpopulate
horrifically (you'd look out in to the field and it'd seem like there
was one rabbit per square foot), then essentially go extinct in an area
due to myximatosis (sp?).

Creatures live and they die. Happens to the very best of us.

Utterly missed the point. Yea, I'm starting to smell a troll too.

That is what people say who aren't smart enough to hold their
end of an argument.




The availability of food from humans and around human habitation
throws the wild equation out the window.

Humans are just a part of the ecosystem to the cats.
Humans are just as likely to provide sustenance to the cat
as a totally wild environment.

You are also forgetting that domestic cats are not wild. They are
feral, and there is a big difference.

Then you haven't seen the wild, self sustaining cats in my neighborhood.


Feral, soon to be overpopulated cats in your neighborhood.


Seen this in deer and rabbits, can't see it'd be any different with
cats.
Cats are a *lot* smarter than deer and rabbits.
See how quickly they figure out just who to come up to, to ask
for a helping hand.

Which makes the problem worse. No natural predators, a lot of help,
they'll easily overpopulate with nothing checking their population. Why
do you think TNR was needed in the first place?

A group of them have already outsmarted me with their purrs
and tranquil eye gazes!


must... not.... commment...

I firmly believe felines know how to judge the ecosystem before
getting it on with other felines.
Sorry, I think you're anthromorphising. If a tom is near a receptive
female, do you REALLY think he's gonna look around and say, "Hmm, seems
quite a lot of us here. I think I'll pass on sex for a while."? Heck,
most HUMANS don't even do that!!!

Cats are smarter than humans in many ways.

That, I'll give you, but the drive to procreate isn't something they can
be smart about. Populations are brought into check by starvation, disease
and predation. I certainly hope someone or a rescue society near that
colony is doing TNR and you're just not aware of it.

Since it's apparent you're just looking for an argument and aren't really
interested in having your mind changed, there's really no point in
continuing this conversation.

I'm not looking for an argument, I'm look for an objective discussion.
Something most human beings, you guys included, are apparently
incapable of.

Too bad. It would have been fun to discuss the intricacies of the
the amazing cat.

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

It is my current observation (correct me if this is not right) that
animals in the wild tend to multiply until their environment can no longer
support them. This has worked on Earth for millions of years.

But by feeding them you're creating an unnatural condition allowing many
more to be born than ordinarily would be.

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

Nature supports cats until it no longer allows reproduction, and the
cat understands this.

But as long as they're artificially fed and living outdoors, there's nothing
to stop their reproduction. Nothing that is unless disease steps in.

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

It is my current observation (correct me if this is not right) that
animals in the wild tend to multiply until their environment can no
longer support them. This has worked on Earth for millions of years.

But by feeding them you're creating an unnatural condition allowing many
more to be born than ordinarily would be.

No, food is a very natural condition for the cat.

What is unnatural is neutering and spaying the poor animals.

I wouldn't do that to a mouse.

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

"jmc" wrote in message
...
Not really. What tends to happen is they overpopulate terribly, then die
off in droves from diseases caused and easily spread by overpopulation
and sickness when the food supply cannot support the population.

I just can't see this. There are animals all over the world living just
fine
in their given environments. Especially protected animals, like our cats.

But they're not "artificially" fed which both allows and encourages
reproduction you don't see in native or natural populations.

The availability of food from humans and around human habitation throws
the wild equation out the window.


Humans are just a part of the ecosystem to the cats.
Humans are just as likely to provide sustenance to the cat
as a totally wild environment.


Not everyone feels as you do. Humans are not all out there feeding huge
populations of feral cats. It's usually one person and when that person
dies, the cats starve to death, die of disease or are trapped and sent to a
shelter.

Seen this in deer and rabbits, can't see it'd be any different with cats.

Cats are a *lot* smarter than deer and rabbits.
See how quickly they figure out just who to come up to, to ask
for a helping hand.


And many of those hands hold a gun or poison or the leash of a nasty dog.
They're anything but helping hands.


A group of them have already outsmarted me with their purrs
and tranquil eye gazes!

Then have them fixed one by one and stop all reproduction. Look for a
low-cost spay clinic.

I firmly believe felines know how to judge the ecosystem before
getting it on with other felines.

You firmly believe wrong. As long as there is enough FOOD, cats will
reproduce.

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

Nature supports cats until it no longer allows reproduction, and the
cat understands this.

But as long as they're artificially fed and living outdoors, there's
nothing to stop their reproduction. Nothing that is unless disease steps
in.

You don't have much faith in cats. Most of the other wild animals
of the world manage their respective populations just fine, including the
great cats.

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
news

"jmc" wrote in message
...
What you are forgetting is the predator factor. Predators of a species
are absolutely critical to a healthy, sustainable population. These
deer, rabbits and cats do not have natural predators (or have few) in
human habitation areas, so the populations are not naturally kept in
check.

Man does just fine without predators. Why shouldn't cats?


Because they're ANIMALS. They don't think and reason like human beings. If
enough food and water are present they will reproduce. Why? Because that's
what all animals do when the have enough food and water. What makes you
think they can reason like a human being? Breeding is hormonally driven.
Cats don't think about how many are already in your back yard or barn.



I've watched deer populations in isolated pockets go from healthy
individuals, to tons of deer that seem to get scrawnier every year, to a
decline in the number I see. I've seen rabbits overpopulate horrifically
(you'd look out in to the field and it'd seem like there was one rabbit
per square foot), then essentially go extinct in an area due to
myximatosis (sp?).

Creatures live and they die. Happens to the very best of us.

But you have the power to stop the suffering in cats. Why not have them
"fixed" one by one? They'll also need rabies shots.

You are also forgetting that domestic cats are not wild. They are feral,
and there is a big difference.

Then you haven't seen the wild, self sustaining cats in my neighborhood.

Then why feed them if they're doing fine on their own?

Sorry, I think you're anthromorphising. If a tom is near a receptive
female, do you REALLY think he's gonna look around and say, "Hmm, seems
quite a lot of us here. I think I'll pass on sex for a while."? Heck,
most HUMANS don't even do that!!!

Cats are smarter than humans in many ways.

You are indeed anthtmotphising them. They're animals and driven by hormones.
They don't think about reproduction, they just do it. It has nothing to do
with intelligence.

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

"jmc" wrote in message
...
Not really. What tends to happen is they overpopulate terribly, then
die off in droves from diseases caused and easily spread by
overpopulation and sickness when the food supply cannot support the
population.

I just can't see this. There are animals all over the world living just
fine
in their given environments. Especially protected animals, like our
cats.

But they're not "artificially" fed which both allows and encourages
reproduction you don't see in native or natural populations.

You seem to think that if a male cat sees a sexy female cat, he has
to make kitties.

Not the case.

I just put food out for a female mother cat (9 Lives canned), and even
though she ate very little today, she turned it down, out of respect.

Cats have *much* self control.




The availability of food from humans and around human habitation throws
the wild equation out the window.


Humans are just a part of the ecosystem to the cats.
Humans are just as likely to provide sustenance to the cat
as a totally wild environment.


Not everyone feels as you do. Humans are not all out there feeding huge
populations of feral cats.


The feral cats are still out there. How do you explain that?



It's usually one person and when that person
dies, the cats starve to death, die of disease or are trapped and sent to
a shelter.

So far, every creature on Earth has finally died. Big deal. It is natural.



Seen this in deer and rabbits, can't see it'd be any different with
cats.

Cats are a *lot* smarter than deer and rabbits.
See how quickly they figure out just who to come up to, to ask
for a helping hand.


And many of those hands hold a gun or poison or the leash of a nasty dog.
They're anything but helping hands.


In the wild, great cats sometimes get defeated to. Such is nature.


A group of them have already outsmarted me with their purrs
and tranquil eye gazes!

Then have them fixed one by one and stop all reproduction. Look for a
low-cost spay clinic.

I will never mutilate a cat like that. Not only would it be painful,
especially to the male, but cats need to be able to fully be themselves,
which in such case they could not.

We should find some other way of taking care of cats.
Problem is, nobody trusts them not to take care of their
own species by abstinence.



I firmly believe felines know how to judge the ecosystem before
getting it on with other felines.

You firmly believe wrong. As long as there is enough FOOD, cats will
reproduce.

Cats are not stupid.
A lot of people are, but not cats.

Suddenly, without warning, Mark Earnest exclaimed (11/2/2009 12:07 AM):
"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...
"jmc" wrote in message
...
Not really. What tends to happen is they overpopulate terribly, then
die off in droves from diseases caused and easily spread by
overpopulation and sickness when the food supply cannot support the
population.
I just can't see this. There are animals all over the world living just
fine
in their given environments. Especially protected animals, like our
cats.
But they're not "artificially" fed which both allows and encourages
reproduction you don't see in native or natural populations.

You seem to think that if a male cat sees a sexy female cat, he has
to make kitties.

Not the case.

I just put food out for a female mother cat (9 Lives canned), and even
though she ate very little today, she turned it down, out of respect.

Cats have *much* self control.


ha! My cat refuses 9 lives too, has nothing to do with self control -
she just hates the stuff.

Mama cats will give up food for her kittens. If her kittens weren't
there, she could be refusing food because she is sick. If she is sick,
your feral population might already be controlling itself.

I hope you eventually learn that though cats and other animals are a lot
smarter than we give them credit for, and IMHO do have the same emotions
as people, they do not have the same motivations and thought processes.

Understanding the animals that share our lives, not just cats, but
horses, dogs, and the lot, is key to a good relationship with them, but
it is important to understand how they think, how they see things from
THEIR POINT OF VIEW, not ours - that's anthropomorphizing, and that's
what you're doing.

I trained my cat, but wasn't any good at it when I would ascribe human
thought processes to her reactions. Once I understood the world,
however imperfectly, from her point of view, my ability to train her
improved tremendously.

No, not tricks, just things like asking permission to be on my lap (I'm
a small person and Meep + reading material doesn't fit), not to bother
me when I'm eating (and no begging), and not to wake me up before the
alarm goes off in the morning. And, of course "No!" or her name in that
certain tone of voice - you know the one, when you mother says your full
name (First Middle Last!)

By the way, she says Good Morning, just joined me here, the front window
is sunny. No, actually, what she's saying is "please feed me"

Off to do as she commands!

jmc

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 22:46:03 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
wrote:


"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

It is my current observation (correct me if this is not right) that
animals in the wild tend to multiply until their environment can no
longer support them. This has worked on Earth for millions of years.

But by feeding them you're creating an unnatural condition allowing many
more to be born than ordinarily would be.

No, food is a very natural condition for the cat.

What is unnatural is neutering and spaying the poor animals.

I wouldn't do that to a mouse.


??

Wrong. Even PETA agress that cats need to be neutered:

http://www.peta.org/feat-abc_campaign.asp

TNR works for many reasons, but the biggest reason is limiting the
number of cats that are killed because of lack of homes and habitat.
Really though, if you don't understand that then there's no point in
going on with this.