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Invisible fence fouled...
Peanut, my cat, learned to beat the invisible fence that I installed in
my yard. He was using it for about 2 years with no incident. Peanut did not seem to care that he couldn't get out. Then I turned down the "power" a bit, so he would have a slightly bigger area to enjoy. Well, the new "power" setting worked fine for a few days. But then he somehow learned to escape. I think he would just run through the shock area... and once he got outside, he was fine. The real problem is that I turned the power back up, but Peanut can still escape. And I don't think training him on this system again will help. I am considering purchasing something like this: http://store.yahoo.com/comfort1st/petinfenpiff.html ....which can not be escaped from. Do you think it will be difficult to re-train him? I know very little (i.e. nothing) about cat behavior. All I know is that I am honored that Peanut allows me to commune with his graciousness. My master thanks you for your contribution. :-| |
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"hanson" wrote in message oups.com... Peanut, my cat, learned to beat the invisible fence that I installed in my yard. He was using it for about 2 years with no incident. Peanut did not seem to care that he couldn't get out. Then I turned down the "power" a bit, so he would have a slightly bigger area to enjoy. Well, the new "power" setting worked fine for a few days. But then he somehow learned to escape. I think he would just run through the shock area... and once he got outside, he was fine. The real problem is that I turned the power back up, but Peanut can still escape. And I don't think training him on this system again will help. I am considering purchasing something like this: http://store.yahoo.com/comfort1st/petinfenpiff.html ...which can not be escaped from. Do you think it will be difficult to re-train him? I know very little (i.e. nothing) about cat behavior. All I know is that I am honored that Peanut allows me to commune with his graciousness. My master thanks you for your contribution. :-| If your cat escapes IV then it will escape this. It's based on the same principle and gives a static electric shock . Also this type of fencing doesn't stop other animals getting into your yard. have you thought about using a mesh fence? (Friendly fencing) Alison |
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For the kind of money you're talking about, you could build a really
nice enclosure. I don't think this product is suitable for cats anyway. It sounds like it was more designed for dogs. Sherry |
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"dgk" wrote in message ... On 20 Apr 2005 12:40:26 -0700, wrote: For the kind of money you're talking about, you could build a really nice enclosure. I don't think this product is suitable for cats anyway. It sounds like it was more designed for dogs. Sherry It is an interesting idea for a dog. Leading a cat around and pointing at flags and saying "NO!" is just going to convince the cat that you are nuts. What it's going to convince the cat of is that he's not supposed to go past the flags when you're around to point them out and say "no" ... but when you're not there it's ok for him to go past them. Just like I have several cats that know they're not supposed to be on the kitchen counter when I'm around. ron |
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:55:59 -0400, "Ron Herfurth"
wrote: "dgk" wrote in message .. . On 20 Apr 2005 12:40:26 -0700, wrote: For the kind of money you're talking about, you could build a really nice enclosure. I don't think this product is suitable for cats anyway. It sounds like it was more designed for dogs. Sherry It is an interesting idea for a dog. Leading a cat around and pointing at flags and saying "NO!" is just going to convince the cat that you are nuts. What it's going to convince the cat of is that he's not supposed to go past the flags when you're around to point them out and say "no" ... but when you're not there it's ok for him to go past them. Just like I have several cats that know they're not supposed to be on the kitchen counter when I'm around. ron Yes, exactly. They know that you don't like it and, being ever eager to please, won't do it when you're around. So considerate. |
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:58:10 -0400, dgk
wrote: ... but when you're not there it's ok for him to go past them. Just like I have several cats that know they're not supposed to be on the kitchen counter when I'm around. Ummmm - not really. Are you familiar with how an IF works? The collar the cat (or dog) wears gives a tone warning and then a pretty strong correction of they progress past the fenceline. -- Janet B www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album |
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"J1Boss" wrote in message ... He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye. Janet Boss "sionnach" wrote in message ... "J1Boss" wrote in message ... I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab. An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9. ------------------------------ |
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Subject: Innotek iut300 vs. Dogtra 200ncp HOWEDY dave, "Dave K" wrote in message news:CHICd.13736$ce6.6873@lakeread07... Hi, all! Can anybody give me some idea as to what an invisible fence goes for "Tricia9999" wrote in message ... how effective are these electronic fences in keeping a dog on a property???? Some run through it. Others get shocked and become too scared to go out in the yard anymore. Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, because the dog got caught right in the path of the shock and will now not go near his person, won't go outside. Just hides under a desk in the house. ------------------------------*---- "I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won't touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. "I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?" "Julia Altshuler" wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51... After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological-- and the vet agrees. --Lia "Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR*ufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR*ufusSmall.WMV" THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES. Shocking dogs goes for dog abusing mental cases who ain't got the intellect to HOWEtwit the cunnin of the domestic puppy dog even after The Amazing Puppy Wizard and HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students all over the Whole Wild World told you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE, to boot. BWEEEEEEEEEEEHAHAHHAHAAA!!! and how it is priced? Misty SEZ the price was too high: misty" wrote in message news: ... We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars. Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn't come back home. I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk around the yard. I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence then you need to train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-( ~misty (Square footage of the yard, perimeter?) You could train your dog to ANY perimeter or border in a couple minutes withHOWET HURTING and INTIMIDATING IT if you knew HOWE: "misty" wrote in message news: I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her loss. I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay home. Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping my dogs in their own yard. Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my concern became how to keep them from running off for days on end. I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades. I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now g A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained, doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all the time. IOW a great companion and friend. Thanks Jerry! ===================== Here's a couple MOORE in case you think Misty is a FLUKE or sumpthin... EVERY CASE HISTORY CITED CAN BE VERIFIED: From: Nevyn ) Subject: radio fence Date: 2003-11-05 04:17:45 PST Hi folks, In my opinion the use of a radioshock fence is a waste of time, effort or money. I can understand it if you a rich snob who cares nothing about their dogs safey or behaviours. At work I boundary train all the dogs to the bricked area (Four kennels with 26 cages with 1 dog in each, 1 services building and 2 catterys which is surrounded by scrubland to the east and woodlands to the north and a lake to the west). This works well, because then when people buy them the dogs are easier to boundary train to a door or fence or yard. However on a personal note, my two shelter mutts, who I trained using the WITS END DOG MANUAL available at www.doggydoright.com will not go past the back door, or the back gate or the front gate without permission. And it is nice, for when you are having a party, you can leave your gates open for people, and your dogs won't be the least concerned. I find this better then spending your well earned money on a piece of junk Why not use it to invest in a horse? Or a new house? Make a nice aquarium? Build a nursery for a child? Save your money. Train your dog. Please. -- Thankyou, Nevyn ______________________________*___ Nevyn E.D. Veterinary Nurse & Animal Trainer "You can judge a man's heart by his treatment of animals" ______________________________*____ From: Paul B *z) Subject: Fence Jumping Date: 2000-09-29 04:33:37 PST Been well experienced in dogs escaping from our yard I know exactly the frustration you are going through. Sam used to jump over the fence so I made it higher then we got Roz and she went under it, through it and climbed over it. I've decided there are only 2 ways to stop the escaping, 1 is to have an escape proof fence, the other to train the dogs not to want to escape. I suppose a third method is to keep them inside but I don't consider that a solution. Making the fence escape proof can be almost impossible if the dog is determined, to stop it climbing over as yours is doing put an extension on top of the fence that angles inwards at about 30-45 degrees. Never use chicken wire as the dogs tear through that like paper. The only training method to prevent this I can recall is Jerry's technique, essentially it involves walking around the perimeter of the fenced area with the dog and using sound distractions and praise to teach the dog it's boundary. I have had partial success with it (i.e. I have deterred Roz from escaping from various points along the fence) but then again I haven't really followed it through completely. One last glimmer of hope, as the dog gets older it may become more settled, Sam never escapes now although he's quite capable of getting out, he 2.5 years old and seemed to settle at about 2. So there you are, only 1.5 years of escaping left!!! Paul. ================= My wife and I are just making preparations for the puppy, A DOG Is A Dog; As A KAT Is A KAT; As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY; As A CHILD IS A CHILD; As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES. ALL Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING ALL Critters Only Respond In PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways; To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment Which We Create For Them. Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture." We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT. Oscar or Abby! "It is by muteness that a dog becomes so utterly beyond value." Like a confessor Priest? "With him, words play no torturing tricks.........., " --John Galsworthy. Don't bet your dog won't tell on you... Their behaviors reflect HOWER words, actions and training quirks. Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. {} ; ~ ) Thanks everybody! You mean 'Thanks Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards and ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER dogs'. Dave from CT granville's DEAD DOG ATTACKED a child biting her viciHOWESLY in the face for standin in front of a fence that reminded her of her SHOCK FENCE JUST LIKE HOWE liea altshuller's dog Cubbe ATTACKED her only friend and tried to attack two children when they stood in her SHOCK ZONE and culprit aka kelly's dogs MURDERED her DEAD KAT and attack each other thanks to their SHOCK FENCES. Here's a child gettin MAULED, thanks to a shock fence: HOWEDY granville, (Granville) wrote in : I am in a spin. Well, permit The Puppy Wizzzard to turn you INSIDE OUT. That'll improve the spin... so you can kill your dog in good conscience, just like you been HURTIN IT in good consicience, cause that's the NATURE of a lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward who'd HURT their dog and then KILL IT, to be FAIR. We have two golden retrievers. Yeah. That won't last long, HOWEver. They are sisters They WAS. WON IS ABOUT TO GET DEAD NOW. and just over a year old. Yeah. The Puppy Wizzzard's been EXXXPECTING you. WELCOME TO WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method School Of HARD KNOCKS. As you would expect You're about to KILL your dog, as PREDICTED. they are real softies. Yeah. That's HOWE COME you'd HURT them. You wouldn't have the balls to hurt a dog like The Puppy Wizzzard's dogs, cause they'd mop the goddamned floors with you for HURTIN them... No aggression, Of course not. That's on account of they fear you, cause you hurt them. you can take a bone away, Cause you'll HURT them if they don't give it up... their dinner away and no problem...just a sad face. Yeah... Just sad. I had both of them on a lead, was leaning against a wall and watching a game. The Puppy Wizzzard don't PLAY games. You HURT your dogs, that's HOWE COME they've now turned AGGRESSIVE: From: Granville ) Subject: e-fencing question Date: 2003-01-29 05:26:47 PST I have found the secret is for the dog to associates something different and new with crossing the barrier. I put on the lead, leave on the collar, turn the system off and walk the dog across. Ok so the first time the resist, but they soon learn that it's ok to cross over with their leash attached. It gives them "permission" to cross with you and the leash. I don't take the collar off, because I use a training collar as well. I don't want the dog becoming "collar smart" and only obey if they have the collar on." The "training" collar being your PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE collar... They were both sitting, quietly beside me. Yeah.. just relaxin. Along comes a 3 year old child and pets the dogs, wagging tales , licks to face etc. She was stroking them for about 5 mins. I had my back turned and then....... Then the dog looked around and seen the fences... and the kids. The larger one (30kg) went for the child. Yeah.. surprise, surprise, surprise... Bit her on the forehead, drew blood. Good for you! This was not a quick nip, but about 3 seconds of sustained biting/attacking The sight of the fence nearby the kids provoked memories of every shock your poor dog has taken from your shock fence. and needed me to pull the dog away. Yeah. He went really NUTS cause YOU HURT HIM. The smaller dog (20kg) continued sitting and was not invloved at all. He'll probably do the same thing, he's just learnin HOWE. Thankfully the child was fine. That so? You think it's fine to get your head bit by a dog at the park on lead? Nothing that a plaster and some TLC won't heal. Yeah... a stroke of LUCK... hunh? You mighta got sued BIG TIME had the dog ripped the kid's face off, like he wanted to do for the kid, cause YOU HURT HIM. There was no provocation that I could see... Of curse not!!! You'll NEVER SEE the TRUTH, cause that's SCAREY, and THAT would MAKE YOU SAD. You're EMBARRASSED lookin at your own HUMAN NATURE. not that that would excuse it. We don't need EXXXCUSES for HURTIN HOWER dogs. I heard no whimper of say a finger poked in the dogs eye etc. The child didn't HURT the dog. YOU DID. You BEEN HURTING IT since day WON. I think the dog got a fright as much as the child...the dog peed everywhere. The dog was frightened of YOU. I don't know what to do. The Puppy Wizzzard does. The Puppy Wizzzard sez only THUGS PUNKS and COWARDS HURT DOGS and then they KILL THEM, TO BE FAIR. Is this a fault in her?. YOU HURT YOUR DOG TO "TRAIN" IT. Now you wantPERMISSION to KILL IT. You got The Puppy Wizzzard's PERMISSION to KILL your dog... so long as you EXXXPLAIN to your KIDS, HOWE COME YOU GOT TO KILL YOUR DOG, CAUSE YOU HURT IT, and MADE IT FEAR CHILDREN. Can I trusther with my 7 year old child?. Can society TRUST YOU with a child. The Puppy Wizzzard sez NO. You're a liar and an abuser. I can't rationalise this behaviour. Of curse you can... you have since the git go, since day WON... She's doesn't appear to be sick, It's YOU who is SICK. She lets my 7 year old roll and tumble with her all the time. Cause she knows you'll HURT HER if she plays rough... like the food and bone and pullin on leash. It's all the same same same same... I have nieces and nephews that could now be at risk when they come over. NOT IF YOU HURT THE DOG ENOUGH. She's SAFE, so long as YOU HURT HER IN ADVANCE. So I need some words of wisdom You're the bum who's been tellin US to HURT HOWER dogs. to help our family understand what we may be facing, You're facing your own human nature, SUCKER. what we should do now What you SHOULD do has NEVER been a question for you. You've done what your HUMAN NATURE DICTATES: HURT less capable beings, and LIE to DEFEND YOURSELF. and into the future You'll KILL this dog, and in a few months when his littermate turns on the family or a neighbor's kid, you'll KILL IT, too... And when your kids grow up and end up in jail or nutHOWESES, you'll blame THEM for not listening to you when you was SETTING THE EXXXAMPLE of HUMAN DECENCY. and how we should think about this incident. The Puppy Wizzzard doesn't pander to lying dog abusing Punk Coward Thugs who're fixin to KILL their dogs cause THEY HURT THEM: Thanks THANK YOU!!! The Puppy Wizzzard NEEDS YOUR CASE HISTORY: From: Granville ) Subject: It's not like that..... Date: 2003-01-30 10:49:38 PST I must disagree....none of what is contained in the article resonates with me nor have I seen it with the other 7 people I know who have an electric fence. The dogs restrained include Retrievers, Spaniels, Wheaten Terriers, Labs. I accept that there is a theoretical risk if you have a highly strung or more bullheaded animal. However I have seen such animals going beserk behind fences and trying to dig under them and gnawing at them. In my view the animal has been out of control through their dislike of any restraint. The problem is primarily with the animal not the method of keeping them restrained. However in this case it's a moot point...given we are talking about a balanced animal. I have two labs...and there has never been an issue of agression nor their natural protective instincts being heightened by the EF. Strays get seen off and the dogs stop at the boundary and bark .....at worst. The notion that a stray getting into the fenced off area and affectively having your dog captive within the area is true, however I have never seen it. Probably because dogs tend to protect their space, and strays get the signals that they are not wanted. But hey just for fun lets speculate for a while..... Imagine your dog is pefect and sits in the yard...you have no EF nor perimeter fence...In strolls another dog into the yard. What happens...if your dog sees them off, or plays..no issue If your dog is fearful and cowers and stays in situ.... well thats just the dogs personality....no issue Why would you put an EF down in this instance?..... Strikes me as there is no need. What happens if your dog bolts and/or chases rather than stays in situ. Well unless you want to give total freedom to run wherever they fancy, you either have him permanently chained up, you put up a yard fence or you lay down an EF. In my view the best and most cost effective option in keeping an even tempered and placid dog humanely contained throughout the day is the EF. In the two years I have had an EF I have could count the amount of corrrections on two hands. They learn really quickly. By the way the installation is really easy..took me a half day to do a yard...150 feet X 100 feet. "jay jay" wrote in message ... "julio" wrote in message ... In article , "jay jay" wrote: "julio" wrote in message ... I saw your post the first time - thank you very much. But - wdj doesn't put up more than the first couple paragraphs of the article online. Bascially the author expressed serious concern with e-fences for the following reasons: they use pain as a training tool. Eventhough it is mild, it needs to be enough to make the dog stop a behavior. Many dogs, espically ones that are more bullheaded (as a breed or individual) may need more than average. there is a strong possibllity that it will feed whatever is making the dog want to get out of the e-fence. Often its the sight of anothe dog. the e-fence dog might be dog-aggressive. Seeing another dog feeds that getting him/her into a heighten state of behavior. Feeling the pain stimuli from the e-fence can make him even more aggressive and/or agitated. The author notes several case histories where a dog's aggressive tendencies, which were ok and handled beforehand, got totally out of control after the e-fence. Also the dog might be trying to get out due to fear. Another dog might get into the e-fence or some animal that the dog doesn't want to be around. Again the combination of the fear with the effect from the e-fence can be problematic. Also the WDJ is a great magazine. It has no advertising and pulls no punches in evaluating things. Its articles on dog food are great. So - tell me - if your dog is not dog agressive ... is not fearful of anything ... is actually friendly towards other animals and people, and will only be allowed out there under some form of supervision - (maybe not direct, but humans being in the house, within earshot and visibility) and its not going to be used as a place to let the dog roam while the humans are not at home... And, *hopefully* if training goes well, fencing (or I should say collar) will be disabled once the dog knows the boundries of the yard. Under those circumstances ... aren't things different? Anyhow - I realize the biggest downfall to e-fencing is that it allows other dogs to roam into your yard without incident, besides the electric thing. But ... I honestly, do not have the option of a regular fence ... ANd - like I've stated before - this isn't a definate - but if I'm not gonna do it - it has to be an extremely firm argument and reasoning - as BF is set on doing this asap... (as in this weekend, he's ready to buy and install). I'm still pushing for a 100' trolley with a 25' leader in the back yard. That would be the other option. Oh, bye the bye, ask matty HOWE his dog Rocky's SEIZURES are doin... THAT'S CAUSED BY BRIBES AND PUNISHMENT AND CRATING... BWEAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! "J1Boss" wrote in message ... He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye. Janet Boss "sionnach" wrote in message ... "J1Boss" wrote in message ... I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab. An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9. Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his shelter dogs learn RESPECT. This is a video about Nero being taught to get on a skateboard. http://www.studioonline.com/pl*ayvid...284B9ABD*FCE0F or http://tinyurl.com/389al In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that. If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much "experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how nationally "respected" they are/were. If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around because he is happy and for no other reason, well, then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can explain what would cause a dog to move his head like that. Here's a other: http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis. "Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon. "Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action as separate, not the wise. If any man knows one, he enjoys the fruit of both. The level which is reached by wisdom is attained through right action as well. He who perceives that the two are one knows the truth." "Even the wise man acts in character with his nature, indeed all creatures act according to their natures. What is the use of compulsion then? The love and hate which are aroused by the objects of sense arise from Nature, do not yield to them. They only obstruct the path." Bhagavad Gita, adapted by Krishna with permission from His FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual. Force training JERRYIZES dogs, and GETS THEM DEAD. Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE HER AGGRESSIVE: "It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got Out In The Neighborhood Leashless: Julia F N Altshuler ) Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got her before she'd had any training and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one. It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her. Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole. For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard. Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or praise and let her go again. So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on what I should do now. Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front door and right in front of our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued. We were careful not to scold her once she was caught. Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collarnow with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she could have another fun romp in the neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the door. Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming when called even from the backyard. My specific questions: How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when she's in a confined space and when she isn't? She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door. What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should happen again? Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and scoldings when we first got her. I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell? Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine with the children; she always has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug. Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap. I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled, turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all was fine. I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now. Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee? --Lia =================== "Julia Altshuler" wrote in message ... I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble where there is none. Here's what happened last April the way I described it to a friend at the time: I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always at the door when I let Ellie in. She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand. Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was trying to be friendly. Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night, but Ellie was understandably scared. Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that, even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I'm horribly torn up. I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood. Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that. Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening, Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the front hall while I still got the door. One of the first people to come to the door once she was out of the computer room was our neighbor Nicky. I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet Cubbe. Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared. Nothing scares that boy. I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly protective-aggressive when people have entered the house. Both times they've been people she knows and should like. She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing thing or not. Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression problem? I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard. What do I do about it? I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of her car, and then we walk in together. She'll still bark when they're in the house and then calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate? --Lia From: Julia Altshuler ) Subject: Cubbe report: Chief Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie. Jim has been running into them on his morning walks with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief. Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs. I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one that doesn't involve the companionship of her own species. Jim's reports were encouraging. Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate. We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs normally do. Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention to Chief, but there was no trouble even though she and Chief were close to each other. Both dogs seemed more interested that their people were handing out treats (for good behaviors like SITs). Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2 dogs would like to chase them together. He did not consult me about this hare brained scheme. Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing, making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage, she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place. Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in seconds. A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.) Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds would have been better for a first try? Or other theories? Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting Cubbe live a dogless existence? --Lia =================== |
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On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:57 -0400, "TheAmazingPuppyWizard"
wrote: "J1Boss" wrote in message ... He was next to me and I could see his neck muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye. Janet Boss "sionnach" wrote in message ... "J1Boss" wrote in message ... I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive dog like a Lab. An INSENSITIVE DOG??? I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9. ------------------------------ Hey Jerry! This is the cat group. We don't use shock collars over here. We use lighter fluid and matches. Charlie |
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