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  #231  
Old August 25th 04, 09:59 PM
Tanada
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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Cheryl wrote:


Pam, in my experience of having lost my son, people in general
don't like to talk about horrifying things (to them) because either
they don't know what to say, or they don't want to upset you. I
read a poem on alt.support.grief that fit me totally, and it helps
to understand both why people don't say what you expect them to
say, and why we react when they either do or don't say something.
I'm going to post it, but I don't expect many to understand it.


You Can't Win With Me

by Jane Warland~1996

If you say to me,
"How are you doing?,"
With such sympathy and
meaning in your voice,
I reply, "I'm fine,"
And brush you off,
Because to talk about my loss
with you is just too painful.
If you see me
And don't mention the loss
that is consuming my thoughts,
I think you don't care enough,
Or are too scared to mention it
For fear that you might upset me.
You can't win with me.

If you say, "I'm sorry your son died,"
It is hard for me to reply to that.
What do you expect me to say?
I want to say, "I'm sorry too!"
or "It's awful!"
I want to scream, "It's not fair!!"
But I won't because I don't
want to upset myself today,
Not in front of you.
So I reply, "Thank you."
That thanks means so much
more than that.
It means thanks for caring,
Thanks for trying to help,
Thanks for realizing that
I'm still in pain.
If you don't know what to
say to me, that's okay.
Because I don't know what
to say to you either.
If you see me smile or laugh,
Don't assume I must have
forgotten my son for the moment.
I haven't, I can't, I never will.
Tell me that I look good today.
I will know what you mean.
I'm getting good at picking
up unspoken cues from you.
If you see me and think
I look upset or sad,
You are probably right.
Today might be an anniversary
day for me,
Or some event might have triggered
a wave of grief in me.
If you don't say anything
I'll think you don't care about me,
But if you do say something,
It might make me feel worse.
You could try asking if I want to talk,
But don't be surprised if I say no.
You can't win with me.

Don't give up on me, please don't give up.
I need your attempts however feeble,
However trite you might feel they are.
I need your thoughts.
I need your prayers.
I need your love.
I need your persistence.
I need all that but most of all
I need to be treated normally,
Like it used to be before
all of this happened.
But I know it's impossible.
That carefree, naive
person is gone forever,
And I am mourning that loss too.

So you can't win with me.



HUGS Cheryl I wish I knew what to say to you, but like a lot of
people dealing with Rob, I don't know how to reply to this. Just that
the poem is similar to dealing with cancer as well. Part of the person
is gone and it will never come back, and things will never be the same
as they were before. Sometimes I wonder which is worse, losing a loved
one quickly, or slowly.

Pam S.

  #232  
Old August 25th 04, 09:59 PM
Tanada
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Cheryl wrote:


Pam, in my experience of having lost my son, people in general
don't like to talk about horrifying things (to them) because either
they don't know what to say, or they don't want to upset you. I
read a poem on alt.support.grief that fit me totally, and it helps
to understand both why people don't say what you expect them to
say, and why we react when they either do or don't say something.
I'm going to post it, but I don't expect many to understand it.


You Can't Win With Me

by Jane Warland~1996

If you say to me,
"How are you doing?,"
With such sympathy and
meaning in your voice,
I reply, "I'm fine,"
And brush you off,
Because to talk about my loss
with you is just too painful.
If you see me
And don't mention the loss
that is consuming my thoughts,
I think you don't care enough,
Or are too scared to mention it
For fear that you might upset me.
You can't win with me.

If you say, "I'm sorry your son died,"
It is hard for me to reply to that.
What do you expect me to say?
I want to say, "I'm sorry too!"
or "It's awful!"
I want to scream, "It's not fair!!"
But I won't because I don't
want to upset myself today,
Not in front of you.
So I reply, "Thank you."
That thanks means so much
more than that.
It means thanks for caring,
Thanks for trying to help,
Thanks for realizing that
I'm still in pain.
If you don't know what to
say to me, that's okay.
Because I don't know what
to say to you either.
If you see me smile or laugh,
Don't assume I must have
forgotten my son for the moment.
I haven't, I can't, I never will.
Tell me that I look good today.
I will know what you mean.
I'm getting good at picking
up unspoken cues from you.
If you see me and think
I look upset or sad,
You are probably right.
Today might be an anniversary
day for me,
Or some event might have triggered
a wave of grief in me.
If you don't say anything
I'll think you don't care about me,
But if you do say something,
It might make me feel worse.
You could try asking if I want to talk,
But don't be surprised if I say no.
You can't win with me.

Don't give up on me, please don't give up.
I need your attempts however feeble,
However trite you might feel they are.
I need your thoughts.
I need your prayers.
I need your love.
I need your persistence.
I need all that but most of all
I need to be treated normally,
Like it used to be before
all of this happened.
But I know it's impossible.
That carefree, naive
person is gone forever,
And I am mourning that loss too.

So you can't win with me.



HUGS Cheryl I wish I knew what to say to you, but like a lot of
people dealing with Rob, I don't know how to reply to this. Just that
the poem is similar to dealing with cancer as well. Part of the person
is gone and it will never come back, and things will never be the same
as they were before. Sometimes I wonder which is worse, losing a loved
one quickly, or slowly.

Pam S.

  #233  
Old August 25th 04, 11:29 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 04:38:55 GMT, wrote:

Tanada wrote:


....

I'm not trying to claim any of this is rational, by the way. And I've
talked to people who have been sick, and they've said that there's nothing
they'd love more than to think about someone *else's* problems, to take
their mind off their own. Or just to have a normal conversation with
someone, where everything doesn't revolve around their illness. When a
friend or relative stops asking for what they need because the think the
sick person can't cope with that, it feels patronizing. I think it makes
the most sense to let a sick or disabled person tell *you* what their
needs and limits are, and otherwise, assume that they are capable people.
Obviously, it's important to respect people's limits, but don't give them
limits before they tell you what they are!

Joyce


I can attest to that.
Being a cancer survivor myself.
I had to have an operation where they cut 2/3 of my lower lip off and
had to sleep sitting up for 3 weeks because I had a feeding tube
through my nose.
I could not wait to get back to work so as to take my mind off of the
situation that I was in.
I was going back to work and then the Dr's. decided that I needed
radiation and chemo.
At first the Dr's. did not want me to work because of the added stress
on my system. I told them that
1) If they wanted to get paid they were going to have to let me go
back to work.
2) I only had so much Medical LOA and if I didn't go back within the
week I was going to lose my position and possibly have to work in a
place where there were known carcinogens and dangerous chemicals
around.

They relented and I went back to work.
I was not very effective at work due to the chemo and radiation, but I
shows up and gave it my all as long as I could. That was enough for
them and they managed to keep me on. As my boss said at least you show
up regularly.

I feel that it is important after a serious illness to get on with
your daily life and not dwell on the bad things.

Any day that you are on the green side of the grass is a good day.

Thanks for letting me rant.



  #234  
Old August 25th 04, 11:29 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 04:38:55 GMT, wrote:

Tanada wrote:


....

I'm not trying to claim any of this is rational, by the way. And I've
talked to people who have been sick, and they've said that there's nothing
they'd love more than to think about someone *else's* problems, to take
their mind off their own. Or just to have a normal conversation with
someone, where everything doesn't revolve around their illness. When a
friend or relative stops asking for what they need because the think the
sick person can't cope with that, it feels patronizing. I think it makes
the most sense to let a sick or disabled person tell *you* what their
needs and limits are, and otherwise, assume that they are capable people.
Obviously, it's important to respect people's limits, but don't give them
limits before they tell you what they are!

Joyce


I can attest to that.
Being a cancer survivor myself.
I had to have an operation where they cut 2/3 of my lower lip off and
had to sleep sitting up for 3 weeks because I had a feeding tube
through my nose.
I could not wait to get back to work so as to take my mind off of the
situation that I was in.
I was going back to work and then the Dr's. decided that I needed
radiation and chemo.
At first the Dr's. did not want me to work because of the added stress
on my system. I told them that
1) If they wanted to get paid they were going to have to let me go
back to work.
2) I only had so much Medical LOA and if I didn't go back within the
week I was going to lose my position and possibly have to work in a
place where there were known carcinogens and dangerous chemicals
around.

They relented and I went back to work.
I was not very effective at work due to the chemo and radiation, but I
shows up and gave it my all as long as I could. That was enough for
them and they managed to keep me on. As my boss said at least you show
up regularly.

I feel that it is important after a serious illness to get on with
your daily life and not dwell on the bad things.

Any day that you are on the green side of the grass is a good day.

Thanks for letting me rant.



  #235  
Old August 25th 04, 11:29 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 04:38:55 GMT, wrote:

Tanada wrote:


....

I'm not trying to claim any of this is rational, by the way. And I've
talked to people who have been sick, and they've said that there's nothing
they'd love more than to think about someone *else's* problems, to take
their mind off their own. Or just to have a normal conversation with
someone, where everything doesn't revolve around their illness. When a
friend or relative stops asking for what they need because the think the
sick person can't cope with that, it feels patronizing. I think it makes
the most sense to let a sick or disabled person tell *you* what their
needs and limits are, and otherwise, assume that they are capable people.
Obviously, it's important to respect people's limits, but don't give them
limits before they tell you what they are!

Joyce


I can attest to that.
Being a cancer survivor myself.
I had to have an operation where they cut 2/3 of my lower lip off and
had to sleep sitting up for 3 weeks because I had a feeding tube
through my nose.
I could not wait to get back to work so as to take my mind off of the
situation that I was in.
I was going back to work and then the Dr's. decided that I needed
radiation and chemo.
At first the Dr's. did not want me to work because of the added stress
on my system. I told them that
1) If they wanted to get paid they were going to have to let me go
back to work.
2) I only had so much Medical LOA and if I didn't go back within the
week I was going to lose my position and possibly have to work in a
place where there were known carcinogens and dangerous chemicals
around.

They relented and I went back to work.
I was not very effective at work due to the chemo and radiation, but I
shows up and gave it my all as long as I could. That was enough for
them and they managed to keep me on. As my boss said at least you show
up regularly.

I feel that it is important after a serious illness to get on with
your daily life and not dwell on the bad things.

Any day that you are on the green side of the grass is a good day.

Thanks for letting me rant.



  #236  
Old August 26th 04, 12:21 AM
SUQKRT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article . net, Tanada
wrote:


I'm not weird, I'm extremely strange.



Unique is a good word.
Suz
Macmoosette


My cats are very good at niquing up on their prey...


Grrrrooooooaaaaaaaaan!
Suz
Macmoosette
Thank Heavens There's Only One
=^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=



Waiting for inspiration. Please hold while I contemplate my navel.

|\__/|
(=':'=)
(")_(")

  #237  
Old August 26th 04, 12:21 AM
SUQKRT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article . net, Tanada
wrote:


I'm not weird, I'm extremely strange.



Unique is a good word.
Suz
Macmoosette


My cats are very good at niquing up on their prey...


Grrrrooooooaaaaaaaaan!
Suz
Macmoosette
Thank Heavens There's Only One
=^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=



Waiting for inspiration. Please hold while I contemplate my navel.

|\__/|
(=':'=)
(")_(")

  #238  
Old August 26th 04, 12:21 AM
SUQKRT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article . net, Tanada
wrote:


I'm not weird, I'm extremely strange.



Unique is a good word.
Suz
Macmoosette


My cats are very good at niquing up on their prey...


Grrrrooooooaaaaaaaaan!
Suz
Macmoosette
Thank Heavens There's Only One
=^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^= =^..^=



Waiting for inspiration. Please hold while I contemplate my navel.

|\__/|
(=':'=)
(")_(")

  #239  
Old August 26th 04, 05:03 AM
Sherry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I had a heart attack in 1999. When I subsequently got my medical
records from the hospital, I discovered that one of the doctors had
been concerned by my "flat affect" -- in other words, he felt that I
was too calm, not worried enough. Once I had made it to the
hospital, I figured that I was in good hands, and went back to my
usual analytical personality, asking the doctors questions about my
condition and treatment. On another hospital visit, one of the
doctors asked me if I was an engineer. When I told him that I was a
computer programmer, he said that he had figured it was something
like that. Such people, who methodically analyze problems at work,
tend to do the same thing when faced with medical issues.


That's interesting. I found cardiologists to be clueless about anything except
cardiology. I went to the ER for jaw pain. I thought I had TMJ or something.
They decided because of an irregular EKG to run a heart cath. The arteries in
my heart were blocked so badly they didn't even bother waking me up to tell me
they were going to do a quadruple bypass. So I wake up and figure something
went terribly wrong. Long story short, I ended up with 11 incisions, a carotid
bypass, femoral bypass besides the heart bypasses. About the third day the
vascular surgeon walked in and said, "You seem depressed." Well, duh, Sherlock.

Sherry
  #240  
Old August 26th 04, 05:03 AM
Sherry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I had a heart attack in 1999. When I subsequently got my medical
records from the hospital, I discovered that one of the doctors had
been concerned by my "flat affect" -- in other words, he felt that I
was too calm, not worried enough. Once I had made it to the
hospital, I figured that I was in good hands, and went back to my
usual analytical personality, asking the doctors questions about my
condition and treatment. On another hospital visit, one of the
doctors asked me if I was an engineer. When I told him that I was a
computer programmer, he said that he had figured it was something
like that. Such people, who methodically analyze problems at work,
tend to do the same thing when faced with medical issues.


That's interesting. I found cardiologists to be clueless about anything except
cardiology. I went to the ER for jaw pain. I thought I had TMJ or something.
They decided because of an irregular EKG to run a heart cath. The arteries in
my heart were blocked so badly they didn't even bother waking me up to tell me
they were going to do a quadruple bypass. So I wake up and figure something
went terribly wrong. Long story short, I ended up with 11 incisions, a carotid
bypass, femoral bypass besides the heart bypasses. About the third day the
vascular surgeon walked in and said, "You seem depressed." Well, duh, Sherlock.

Sherry
 




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