[OT] [PW] [Long] America Bashing

In article , "CatNipped"
wrote:

"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...

With "trackless" electronic voting, we'll never know, will
we? (I'm of your opinion, I just didn't want to drag in
another red herring.)

OTOH, most cats probably like herring.

ROTFLMAO! Thanks Howard, it's about time we got this back on topic!! ;

Hugs,

CatNipped



All right. Does a cat think dragging in a red human is indicative of an
irrelevancy? Do cats dislike sunburned humans?

"Sherry " wrote in message
...
I don't support such talk: but I don't support Americans winding
others up. I just think that the more some Americans wind other people
up the more the average American must expect a reaction.

Again, David, how do some Americans wind people up? What would be an
example?
Unless I'm just too close to the situation, that I just can't see it, I
can't
think of any example you could be talking about.

May I answer this?

I've just deleted a whole bunch of stuff that, once I re-read it, sounded
rather flamey. I didn't mean it to sound like that, but when you start
griping, thats how it inevitabley turns out.

To sum up my page of complaints, it is generally related to the the
assumption by some individual Americans that its "obvious that All things
American are the best, and that given a choice, the rest of the world would
all like to be like America" type of thing that us non-Americans
occasionally come across in our journeys in cyberspace. The other, less
insulting, but just annoying thing, is the assumption that any
English-speaking/writing person in cyberspace is American. To save this
wonderful group from degenerating into flames, I could e-mail you (or anyone
else) examples if when I come across them (if I remember) explaining why
they are irksome.

One factual point I'll be critical of (Sorry Gracie) is that while America
may well give the most dollars in foreign aid that any other country, if you
take that as a percentage of GNP, its a pretty darn lousy figure. 21 other
countries give more as a percentage of GNP.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp
Australia isn't allt hat good either, I'm sad to point out.

Yowie



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CatNipped wrote
"David Stevenson" wrote in message
...

Maybe not, but remember what started this discussion: a dislike of people
criticising Americans. You cannot have it both ways. Either you support
Americans having the right to talk in a way that winds other people up, or
you do not. If you support it you must expect the results to follow.

David, I fully support *everyone* having the right to say whatever they
feel - even to the point of America-bashing. What *I'm* asking is that, if
you are corresponding with *me*, and want to stay on friendly terms, then
please don't blanket criticize my entire nation because you don't like the
actions of a few of my fellow countrymen. I am fully in agreement with most
of the objections people from other nations have about my government. But,
just because you don't like the fact that my *government* (*NOT* me) is
opposed to the Kyoto Treaty, please don't say that "Americans" (which
includes me, my family, and my friends) are stupid, backwards, evil, etc.,
etc., etc. Am I not making that distinction clear?

You complained about *other* people "bashing" the USA. Can you not
see it is just the same? *I* did not bash the USA when you were
complaining about someone in the Middle East.

You seem to think that it is ok for you to take it personally when
someone has a go at the USA, but not for us to take it personally when
an American winds us up.

But in both cases it is a personal opinion, possibly one that should
not be said. People have argued that Americans have a right to free
speech - so why does that right not apply to others?

Actually, I am not a great believer in free speech, but the nastiness
on a lot of NGs - not this one - has changed my attitude over the years
- sadly.

--
David Stevenson Storypage: http://blakjak.com/sty_menu.htm
Liverpool, England, UK Emails welcome
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Sherry wrote
I don't support such talk: but I don't support Americans winding
others up. I just think that the more some Americans wind other people
up the more the average American must expect a reaction.

Again, David, how do some Americans wind people up? What would be an example?
Unless I'm just too close to the situation, that I just can't see it, I can't
think of any example you could be talking about.

Telling other people that their armies are the best: that their money
supports other countries mo that their advances have helped the
quality of life more than other peoples: that they are the ones who
suffer most from terrorism.

Some of it may be true - though not all - but people in other
countries appear much less likely to say so of their country.

--
David Stevenson Storypage: http://blakjak.com/sty_menu.htm
Liverpool, England, UK Emails welcome
Nanki Poo: SI O+W B 11 Y L+ W++ C+ I T+ A- E H++ V- F Q P+ B+ PA+ PL SC
Minke: SI W+Cp B 2 Y L W+ C++ I T A- E H++ V++ F- Q- P B PA+ PL+ SC-

Sherry wrote
Maybe not, but remember what started this discussion: a dislike of
people criticising Americans. You cannot have it both ways. Either you
support Americans having the right to talk in a way that winds other
people up, or you do not. If you support it you must expect the results
to follow.

I'm not criticizing your post, David, but I am simply bumfuzzled by it. What do
you mean? What kind of talk "winds people up"? I just don't see anyone bashing
the English, or any other country for that matter to the extent that the
Americans are the brunt of criticism. I would say never on this group.

Americans tend to promote themselves and their country more than other
nations. Surely it is not unreasonable to expect a greater reaction?

There you go again. If you would just use the word "some" Americans, I don't
think it would sound like so much like you are tarring an entire nation with
the same brush.

I said "tend to". That's my experience. If you wish to take
generalisations to the particular, that's your choice, but there is no
reason to.

Do you really believe that the average American does not promote his
country more than the average person in some other country?

--
David Stevenson Storypage: http://blakjak.com/sty_menu.htm
Liverpool, England, UK Emails welcome
Nanki Poo: SI O+W B 11 Y L+ W++ C+ I T+ A- E H++ V- F Q P+ B+ PA+ PL SC
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"David Stevenson" wrote in message
...

OK, I'll have one more go at this and then we'll just have to agree to
disagree...

You complained about *other* people "bashing" the USA. Can you not
see it is just the same? *I* did not bash the USA when you were
complaining about someone in the Middle East.

???? I'm not understanding that statement. What is the same? Is defending
your country and countryment the same as bashing another country? Is
listing the things your country does that you're proud of the same as
calling the people of another nations dumb, evil, etc.? If so I'm not
seeing it. And I don't remember complaining about someone in the Middle
East.

You seem to think that it is ok for you to take it personally when
someone has a go at the USA, but not for us to take it personally when
an American winds us up.

Can you explain what, "when an American winds us up" means? Did my
defending and/or bragging about my country "wind you up"? If so, why? I
would take no offense at all, would not feel "wound up" if you were to list
all the things that England has done and is doing for the world - in fact I
would probably agree and respect you as being a patriot. If you said that
England was the best country in the entire history of the world I might
disagree, but I would not be in any way offended by you saying so (I would
think it a little odd if you didn't think that - patriotism is never naive
or passe).

But in both cases it is a personal opinion, possibly one that should
not be said. People have argued that Americans have a right to free
speech - so why does that right not apply to others?

Again, I am not saying that people do not have a right to free speech, a
fellow countryman of mine once said, "I may disagree with what you say but I
will defend to the death your right to say it." I feel the same. What I
took umbrage to was someone replying to one of my posts (sorry to bring this
up again Zorin after we've both apologized, but it is necessary to the
explanation) citing a movie critic who called Americans "dumbed-down" among
many other disparaging remarks. I never once said she or he did not have a
right to say it - I only defended my country and asked that people remember
that we are a nation of individuals who seldom all agree on any one thing
much less are all cast from the same mold. I wanted to remind people of all
the *good* things Anerica has done for the world to try to balance out the
"bad publicity" we seem to be getting. I just wanted to let people here
know that the prevalence of America bashing is not the harmless sport most
people may think it is.

It *seems* like such a minor thing, the US is so powerful that it's harmless
behavior to take verbal potshots at us. The problem is that this
not-so-subtle form of prejudice can lead to *VERY* harmful results. When an
entire nation or race of people become so stereotyped as evil that they
become dehumanized, then you can do awful things to them (like crashing a
plane into a building full of innocent men, women, and children - proably
none of whom had any hand in shaping US foreign policy) and feel no guilt
about it and expect no retribution for it.

Actually, I am not a great believer in free speech, but the nastiness
on a lot of NGs - not this one - has changed my attitude over the years
- sadly.

Oh my. I don't even want to get into the issue of someone who does not
believe in free speech. The consequences of that are just too dreadful for
an American to even imagine.

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
David Stevenson Storypage: http://blakjak.com/sty_menu.htm
Liverpool, England, UK Emails welcome
Nanki Poo: SI O+W B 11 Y L+ W++ C+ I T+ A- E H++ V- F Q P+ B+ PA+ PL SC
Minke: SI W+Cp B 2 Y L W+ C++ I T A- E H++ V++ F- Q- P B PA+ PL+ SC-

"Yowie" wrote in message
...

I've just deleted a whole bunch of stuff that, once I re-read it, sounded
rather flamey. I didn't mean it to sound like that, but when you start
griping, thats how it inevitabley turns out.

To sum up my page of complaints, it is generally related to the the
assumption by some individual Americans that its "obvious that All things
American are the best, and that given a choice, the rest of the world
would
all like to be like America" type of thing that us non-Americans
occasionally come across in our journeys in cyberspace. The other, less
insulting, but just annoying thing, is the assumption that any
English-speaking/writing person in cyberspace is American. To save this
wonderful group from degenerating into flames, I could e-mail you (or
anyone
else) examples if when I come across them (if I remember) explaining why
they are irksome.

Thank you Yowie, that does help explain it, and thinking back on some of my
posts I have to admit that I've been guitly of this. My only excuse it that
I was overzealous in trying to put out some of that "good publicity" that we
seem to be so lacking in (which is not a very good excuse I'll admit - I
hate it when someone puts on airs of superiority and it's not pleasant to be
caught doing it).

One factual point I'll be critical of (Sorry Gracie) is that while America
may well give the most dollars in foreign aid that any other country, if
you
take that as a percentage of GNP, its a pretty darn lousy figure. 21 other
countries give more as a percentage of GNP.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp
Australia isn't allt hat good either, I'm sad to point out.

Yowie

You're right. I'll be the first to admit that America has many, many,
*MANY* faults and I glossed over that in my zeal to defend my country. My
main objective was to let people know that we are not *all* as stupid and
evil as a lot of people think we are, but I've probably only hurt my cause.

Please forgive me if I went overboard in the opposite direction. I was
being smug, officious, and self righteous and I beg the pardon of anyone I
offended.

Hugs,

CatNipped

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"GraceCat" wrote in message
...

"Christina Websell" wrote in message
...
If you have seen me bash America/Americans on this group, as a Brit I
apologise, but we would sure like you all to sign up to the emissions
thing.
No offence intended.

Tweed


Can we share the declawing laws too?

Grace



Oh, *yes* *please* :-))

Tweed

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
Evelyn, although I tend to agree with your sentiments, I have so say... if
you have some evidence that Dubya has committed an impeachable offense,
the democratic party would love to hear from you. ...
CatNipped

Quoted below are excerpts from an editorial that appeared in our local
newspaper regarding the passage of the new prescription-drug benefit for
senior citizens. I clipped it, but did not include the date.

"...the nonpartisan and respected Congressional Research Service found that
the Bush administration probably violated federal law by ordering Medicare's
chief actuary to withhold politically damaging cost estimates from Congress.
....The benefit was billed as costing $395 billion over 10 years...
Then it turned out that the administration had suppressed estimated by chief
actuary Richard Foster, a career civil servant, that the true cost of the
drug benefit would be between $500 billion and $600 billion.
....Adding to the controversy was Foster's assertion that his then-boss,
Medicare administrator Thomas Scully, had threatened to fire him if he
communicated his estimates to Congress.
....The CRS noted that withholding the information violated a number of
statutes and court decisions.
....House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Bill Thomas, R-Calif., has
resisted Democrat's calls to subpoena Scully and White House healthcare
advisor Douglas Badger. He said he would issue subpoenas if there were
evidence that laws were broken. Now he has it."

Annie

You're right. I'll be the first to admit that America has many, many,
*MANY* faults and I glossed over that in my zeal to defend my country. My
main objective was to let people know that we are not *all* as stupid and
evil as a lot of people think we are, but I've probably only hurt my cause.

The very fact that so many of us are willing (eager, sometimes) to point
out the foolish, arrogant, evil, and even terroristic things being done
by and in the name of Bush and company gives pretty good testimony that
not all of us USA-ians are as stupid and evil as a lot of the world thinks.

Please forgive me if I went overboard in the opposite direction. I was
being smug, officious, and self righteous and I beg the pardon of anyone I
offended.

Personally, I haven't been offended by anything anyone has had to say on
this thread. Yes, people's emotions sometimes run hot onthis topic, but
that's to be expected. I think even most zealous Republicans are willing
to concede that the actions of the White House have sometime been
reprehensible. And some of us who left the Republican party in disgust
some years ago are even eager to do so!

I think the bottom line to this thread can be summarized as:
* The USA has a mixed history with respect to other countries. We've
done some powerful good, but we've also done some powerful harm.
* Other major powers have an even more mixed history in this regard. In
many ways the US has less to be ashamed of than many other countries.
* Many USA citizens are trying to make the world a better place.
* These good-hearted folks are making a difference.
* Some USA citizens are evil-spirited, small-minded people.
* These nasty folks are doing some powerful nasty stuff.
* Those of us on the various cat-focused newsgroups choose to be in the
group of people trying to make a positive difference.
* Many of us regularly contact our elected representatives to express
our pleasure with the good things being done, our disgust and horror at
the nasty things being done, and our hopes that in the future the good
things will far out-weigh the nastys.

Dan