Crane, Gaubster, PhilP

..because of rumors, innuendo and scare tactics perpertrated by the au
naturel cult fanatics.

Phil, you sound like an old LP record repeating the same words over
and over again... Can´t you find other arguments instead of just
calling people au naturel cult fanatics?

If it is accurate, why not? As far as repeating the same thing over and over,
that's what your ilk do when it comes to spreading the fear factor.

I attacked it because it is a class C
substance (possible carcinogenic) and because I am *sure* fatty liver
disease is caused by these artificial antioxidants building up in the
liver.

"possible carcinogenic" Everything is "possibly" bad...but that doesn't make
it so and certainly not in levels that are "ok". As for fatty liver disease
your theory is a new one. Just because you are "sure" doesn't it make it the
case.

The vet board suggested pet food should have no
more than 75ppm

...because of complaints they received as a result the scare tactics and
rumors perpertrated by the au naturel cults and "natural "breeders...

Oh, so you´re saying they are stupid enough to buy those rumors if
those rumors were really just rumors?

No, but the public is and that's where the demand comes from...especially if
the public is duped by people on your side of the aisle.

.Even at that level *still* not a single case of ethoxyquin-related illness
or adverse effect was *ever* reported in a *single* cat in the of hundreds
of millions of cats that ate food preserved with ethoxyquin for
*generations*.

You only see what you *want* to see. Isn´t cancer the number one cause
of feline death?

Are you changing the subject--just answer the question. You can't, because
there isn't one single case, anywhere. Period.

Just an example of the general public's ignorance, vulnerability and
susceptibility to scare tactics, rumors and innuendo (Martin's keys to
selling books) perpetrated by a few fanatical extremists with an agenda....

You´re just too lazy to bother feeding your cats REAL food so you come
up with all that hostility to justify your laziness before your own
conscience.

Not really addressing his comment, are you?

Lots of breeders have reported problems
that they believed were caused by eq. Ok, if not by eq., then what
caused those problems?

Breeders are about the single biggest source of misinformation that I've ever
encountered when it comes to nutrition. And every month they are on a new
kick. They "believe" problems are caused by _____?? That doesn't make it so.
I am continually amazed by the lack of logic in our society.

The percentage of women with mammary cancer has risen
dramatically over the last two decades. I´m sure you can guess what I
blame it on.... BHT.

So what? It could be about a billion other things.

Lots of breeders have reported problems
that they believed were caused by eq. Ok, if not by eq., then what
caused those problems?

Breeders are about the single biggest source of misinformation that I've ever
encountered when it comes to nutrition. And every month they are on a new
kick. They "believe" problems are caused by _____?? That doesn't make it so.
I am continually amazed by the lack of logic in our society.

The percentage of women with mammary cancer has risen
dramatically over the last two decades. I´m sure you can guess what I
blame it on.... BHT.

So what? It could be about a billion other things.

The FDA and any such agency is there to protect the population.
Withholding this kind of information from the public should be
considered a crime. A long time ago I managed to access their file on
eq via ftp and that was a nasty file. Phil should send a letter to the
FDA asking for their file on ethoxyquin and I´m sure he´ll change his
mind. Some time later I tried to access another file via ftp and they
closed the backdoor. So they ARE hiding things that should be
available to everyone.

See, it really is all a big conspiracy??!! I hope you people don't vote!
Gimme a break.

The FDA and any such agency is there to protect the population.
Withholding this kind of information from the public should be
considered a crime. A long time ago I managed to access their file on
eq via ftp and that was a nasty file. Phil should send a letter to the
FDA asking for their file on ethoxyquin and I´m sure he´ll change his
mind. Some time later I tried to access another file via ftp and they
closed the backdoor. So they ARE hiding things that should be
available to everyone.

See, it really is all a big conspiracy??!! I hope you people don't vote!
Gimme a break.

There you have it! A perfect example of "Liz Logic"! LOL!.

You think you are Mr. Smart, don´t you? And it seems you got yourself
a little friend who thinks he´s just as smart as you.

You still haven´t told me what bone buffering is...

AND I´ve read some of your old posts. You copy things straight from
books and make it seem like they are your own words. In one of these
posts, you stated that enzymes only work downhill. Would you mind
explaining what downhill is?

You do not understand 90% of the things you read Phil. That´s just why
you get so aggressive. You simply do not have any arguements
whatsoever. Once you are challenged to THINK, you go into defensive
mode.

I wonder if you are going to evade answering these questions by going
away for a couple of weeks and coming back saying that you were on the
other side of the world like you did the first time I asked you what
bone buffering was.

There you have it! A perfect example of "Liz Logic"! LOL!.

You think you are Mr. Smart, don´t you? And it seems you got yourself
a little friend who thinks he´s just as smart as you.

You still haven´t told me what bone buffering is...

AND I´ve read some of your old posts. You copy things straight from
books and make it seem like they are your own words. In one of these
posts, you stated that enzymes only work downhill. Would you mind
explaining what downhill is?

You do not understand 90% of the things you read Phil. That´s just why
you get so aggressive. You simply do not have any arguements
whatsoever. Once you are challenged to THINK, you go into defensive
mode.

I wonder if you are going to evade answering these questions by going
away for a couple of weeks and coming back saying that you were on the
other side of the world like you did the first time I asked you what
bone buffering was.

From: (Liz)
Date: 9/6/03 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

There you have it! A perfect example of "Liz Logic"! LOL!.

You think you are Mr. Smart, don´t you? And it seems you got yourself
a little friend who thinks he´s just as smart as you.


Liz, if you're referring to me...I don't think I'm as knowledgable about feline
nutrition as Phil P. I do have a basic understanding of nutrition and know
what goes on in pet foods. However, I don't fall for the scare tactics of
people like Ann Martin either. I will also challenge somebody if I think they
are trying to "pull a fast one". Because I disagree w/ you on some things
doesn't mean that you or anybody else has to get personal.

From: (Liz)
Date: 9/6/03 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

There you have it! A perfect example of "Liz Logic"! LOL!.

You think you are Mr. Smart, don´t you? And it seems you got yourself
a little friend who thinks he´s just as smart as you.


Liz, if you're referring to me...I don't think I'm as knowledgable about feline
nutrition as Phil P. I do have a basic understanding of nutrition and know
what goes on in pet foods. However, I don't fall for the scare tactics of
people like Ann Martin either. I will also challenge somebody if I think they
are trying to "pull a fast one". Because I disagree w/ you on some things
doesn't mean that you or anybody else has to get personal.

Mr. Smart (Phil) wrote:

"Because so-called "natural" antioxidants (tocopherols) are weaker,
less
stable, and have their own tendency to become oxidized. That's why."

The first adjective is incorrect. Eq is easier to oxidise than
tocopherols, that´s why it is used to preserve tocopherols and other
oils. The second adjective is also wrong. If eq is easier to oxidise,
it is therefore more unstable. The last comment is correct. That´s why
antioxidants are called antioxidants Phil. They are electron donors
but I´m sure you have no clue as to what this means.

"The "natural tocopherols" in many products labeled "preserved with
natural
tocopherols" have already been preserved with a synthetic antioxidant
by the
supplier before it gets to the manufacturer."

Absolutely not. Tocopherols are shipped in oxygen-free sealed
containers. Tocopherols are oils Phil. Liquid. You cannot ship them in
a paper bag.

"If you had any sense, you'd hope your vitamin E was preserved with
the more
stable and longer lasting EQ...."

If you knew what you were talking about, you´d know that tocopherols
are oils and are shipped in sealed plastic or glass containers.

Phil´s smart friend says:
Why do you think that Vitamin E is encapsulated? That's because it is NOT an
effective preservative.

That is exactly why it is encapsulated Mr. Smart II. It is
encapsulated to protect it from oxygen, that´s how effective it is.

As far at ethoxyquin goes, I don't believe that it
"builds up" in a cat's system. That is a theory designed to push an agenda,
that I don't believe is based in fact.

Well, my heart goes to your cats. If any of your cats ever has fatty
liver disease and/or mammary, skin, brain, or liver cancer, blame it
on yourself.