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#31
July 18th 04, 05:14 AM
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#32
July 18th 04, 08:11 PM
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Gaubster wrote:
From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ snip Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I questioned why something was done and he gave me an answer, but here you are trying to make it look as though he posted that information before I responded. This is typical of your regular lies and misrepresentations. It doesn't change the fact that my suggestions for how to treat constipation and urinary tract issues *are* effective and on the mark. If a poster takes another approach it doesn't change the validity of what I say. ...and what research did you do on THIS particular case?? None, because you didn't examine the animal personally, nor did you have access to the cat's records. Pull your head out, Megan. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. This isn't some incredibly complicated medical issue and it hasn't been going on for very long. If the requirement is that we can't give suggestions or advice on health issues without personally examining the cat or being privy to its medical records this group would cease to exist. You only put this forth because you have this pathetic compulsion to be argumentative in spite of the obvious. The OP described the results of the cats examination and it's pretty basic stuff, although compehending basic information is and has for a long time been above and beyond your abilities. Again, you're putting words into people's mouths. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray
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#33
July 18th 04, 08:11 PM
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Gaubster wrote:
From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ snip Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I questioned why something was done and he gave me an answer, but here you are trying to make it look as though he posted that information before I responded. This is typical of your regular lies and misrepresentations. It doesn't change the fact that my suggestions for how to treat constipation and urinary tract issues *are* effective and on the mark. If a poster takes another approach it doesn't change the validity of what I say. ...and what research did you do on THIS particular case?? None, because you didn't examine the animal personally, nor did you have access to the cat's records. Pull your head out, Megan. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. This isn't some incredibly complicated medical issue and it hasn't been going on for very long. If the requirement is that we can't give suggestions or advice on health issues without personally examining the cat or being privy to its medical records this group would cease to exist. You only put this forth because you have this pathetic compulsion to be argumentative in spite of the obvious. The OP described the results of the cats examination and it's pretty basic stuff, although compehending basic information is and has for a long time been above and beyond your abilities. Again, you're putting words into people's mouths. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray
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#34
July 18th 04, 09:36 PM
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Steve wrote:
If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal. I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn? Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're focusing on corn gluten meal when my point was that that is not the only ingredient, which you then said yourself: Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM. Jesus ****ing christ, don't waste my time going off on tangents that sidestep what I'm talking about then repeat what I said while implying that I didn't say it. snip studies Steve hasn't read Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case. And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no business using them. You should know better. If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the popularity of dry foods. From a 2003 AVMA article available at http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm: "Obese cats are four times as likely to develop diabetes mellitus and five times as likely to develop lameness." Fat cats also have a higher incidence of non-allergic skin disease, most likely caused by the cat's inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate content. "Cats are unique in the way they handle protein, carbohydrates, and fat," Dr. Greco said. Cats are strict carnivores and, because of this, they have a tremendous ability to produce glucose from protein, but have difficulty processing carbohydrates. The feline liver has normal hexokinase activity, but no glucokinase activity. Thus, cats are limited in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat. In addition, unlike humans, protein is the stimulus for insulin release in cats. Cats have adapted to high protein diets by being insulin resistant. This maintains blood glucose during periods of fasting, convenient for a cat in the wild, but not so good for pets eating a lot of carbohydrates. "When you take an individual that is genetically programmed to consume high protein and low carbohydrates, and you put them on a high carbohydrate diet, what happens is their insulin resistance works against them," she said. "Their blood glucose concentrations are too high ... they can't overcome that, and they start to release more and more insulin in an attempt to reduce blood glucose levels." This doesn't work, however, and the cat eventually develops type 2 diabetes mellitus. The cat gets amyloid deposition in the pancreas, exhaustion of the pancreatic cells, and glucose toxicity from consumption of large amounts of carbohydrates. So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food, high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a "CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes. She recommends a wet cat food because if you are trying to mimic what a cat eats in the wild, just think of how much water a mouse contains. Wet cat food is going to give you a pH that is ideal and is, thus, the best way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said. In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby causing dental problems. According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment (Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp (Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum (basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat to fade. Not sure that a cat could bring down a cow or sheep either, but who's to say what ambitious felines are out there... Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're just trying to be annoying wit your tangents or what, but the reality is that if we don't feed a diet of mice then the best we can do is mimic the content of that type of diet to the best of our ability. If we can't make it ourselves then we have to rely on the pet food companies and the choices of ingredients they make, and choose the best of what is available. Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat (which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes, raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to him. , a lot of the problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD, UTI's, etc. would be few. Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up. Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet can cause diabetes. And pay attention to the last line of that article because it is clear and to the point, and what I said above and have been saying all along: *According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." * Now, I do actually agree with you that feeding a species appropriate diet is an appropriate [sic] thing to do, Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute questioning their use. I really don't have time for this and if you want to argue for the sake of arguing Gaubster is your man. but if you try to justify this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites? I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue. You keep on focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well, which is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the process of using that which has been converted, do you not? Will you now be making justifications for why a cow should eat meat? For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet. And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on your part and I expect better of you. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray
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#35
July 18th 04, 09:36 PM
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Steve wrote:
If I had said corn gluten meal was at issue you might have a slightly valid point. You don't and have conveniently chosen to ignore the fact that "hairball remedy" foods contain more than just corn gluten meal. I see. So, CGM doesn't count even thought it's extracted from corn? Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're focusing on corn gluten meal when my point was that that is not the only ingredient, which you then said yourself: Not sure what your logic is on this one. And *all* cat foods contain more vegetable or vegetable-derived matter than just CGM. Jesus ****ing christ, don't waste my time going off on tangents that sidestep what I'm talking about then repeat what I said while implying that I didn't say it. snip studies Steve hasn't read Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case. And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no business using them. You should know better. If cats could indeed digest carbs poorly or not at all, I think that we wouldn't have quite as many obese (indoor) cats as we do, given the popularity of dry foods. From a 2003 AVMA article available at http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm: "Obese cats are four times as likely to develop diabetes mellitus and five times as likely to develop lameness." Fat cats also have a higher incidence of non-allergic skin disease, most likely caused by the cat's inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate content. "Cats are unique in the way they handle protein, carbohydrates, and fat," Dr. Greco said. Cats are strict carnivores and, because of this, they have a tremendous ability to produce glucose from protein, but have difficulty processing carbohydrates. The feline liver has normal hexokinase activity, but no glucokinase activity. Thus, cats are limited in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat. In addition, unlike humans, protein is the stimulus for insulin release in cats. Cats have adapted to high protein diets by being insulin resistant. This maintains blood glucose during periods of fasting, convenient for a cat in the wild, but not so good for pets eating a lot of carbohydrates. "When you take an individual that is genetically programmed to consume high protein and low carbohydrates, and you put them on a high carbohydrate diet, what happens is their insulin resistance works against them," she said. "Their blood glucose concentrations are too high ... they can't overcome that, and they start to release more and more insulin in an attempt to reduce blood glucose levels." This doesn't work, however, and the cat eventually develops type 2 diabetes mellitus. The cat gets amyloid deposition in the pancreas, exhaustion of the pancreatic cells, and glucose toxicity from consumption of large amounts of carbohydrates. So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food, high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a "CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes. She recommends a wet cat food because if you are trying to mimic what a cat eats in the wild, just think of how much water a mouse contains. Wet cat food is going to give you a pH that is ideal and is, thus, the best way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said. In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby causing dental problems. According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." Not sure that cats eat sweet potatoes in their natural environment (Wellness) either, or perhaps they have hidden digging talents. And peas (Natural Life)! Yes, I always have to shoo the cats away from the pea-patch, always swiping the pods, the buggers. How about dried kelp (Newman's Own), doubtless caught be those wily aquacats. Or guar gum (basically everything). Brown rice, cranberry meal (Felidae). Repeat to fade. Not sure that a cat could bring down a cow or sheep either, but who's to say what ambitious felines are out there... Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're just trying to be annoying wit your tangents or what, but the reality is that if we don't feed a diet of mice then the best we can do is mimic the content of that type of diet to the best of our ability. If we can't make it ourselves then we have to rely on the pet food companies and the choices of ingredients they make, and choose the best of what is available. Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat (which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes, raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to him. , a lot of the problems we see today like constipation, diabetes, kidney failure, IBD, UTI's, etc. would be few. Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up. Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet can cause diabetes. And pay attention to the last line of that article because it is clear and to the point, and what I said above and have been saying all along: *According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use a cat's natural diet as a guideline." * Now, I do actually agree with you that feeding a species appropriate diet is an appropriate [sic] thing to do, Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute questioning their use. I really don't have time for this and if you want to argue for the sake of arguing Gaubster is your man. but if you try to justify this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites? I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue. You keep on focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well, which is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the process of using that which has been converted, do you not? Will you now be making justifications for why a cow should eat meat? For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet. And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on your part and I expect better of you. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray
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#36
July 19th 04, 01:12 AM
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#37
July 19th 04, 01:12 AM
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#38
July 19th 04, 01:20 AM
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#39
July 19th 04, 01:20 AM
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#40
July 19th 04, 04:40 AM
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Gaubster wrote: From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Well, you keep doing it--read on........ Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I never made any parallels about time frames (and neither did you for that matter in your original post). I SAID: Let's see what the OP found out: Notice the part where I stated, "FOUND OUT". Again, you are trying to twist things around because your arrogance doesn't allow you to admit when you are wrong. No, not at all. You implied, it's obvious and trying to backpedal doesn't change reality. Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) What part of my above statement is "deceptive"?? It certainly does sound as if the problem has been resolved with "the help" of Hill's diets. Again, you should look in the mirror before you start letting the venom flow through your fingertips. You implied I should have already known what was done for the cat by following it with the statement that my advice was off the mark. You also implied that because the Hill's diet worked, my advice was wrong. It was not. You know exactly what you did, it was deceptive, and this is typical of you. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. Right here is where you trip yourself up. Not at all. I have made similar statements in the past and am consistent. The diets his cat were prescribed were Hill's diets and worked. You don't like Hill's and attempt to convince other people to listen to you. No, you're wrong. I care about the health of cats and think it's better to treat issues with a proper species appropriate diet rather than depend on low quality prescription foods. It doesn't matter who makes it. This particular case is just one example that you are way off the mark (again). No, you're wrong, because I've seen cats completely cured from having constipation simply by changing their food to a high quality canned diet. There are also hundreds of others on the IBD list alone that have resolved constipation, diarrhea and IBD issues not by feeding prescription diets, but by feeding foods that are as close to what a cat would eat naturally as they can reasonably get. There are certainly countless others that have been successful using a proper diet instead of prescription foods as well. This is not rocket science and this approach is not by any means off the mark. It's an approach that is, in the article I posted, recommended by a veterinary internal medicine specialist and published by the AVMA, but I'm sure that since she doesn't work for or recommend Hill's you'll claim she's wrong too. Theraputic diets (especially Hill's) have been successfully treating millions of pets for almost 60 years. And I have successfully treated many health issues without having to use prescription diets, even though they were recommended. So have countless others. Why you have a problem with that is beyond me. Because their food is low quality crap, full of grains and often undefined meat sources, with a high price tag. The fact that you have a problem with successfully treating constipation issues by feeding a high quality canned food rather than a prescription diet is just more proof that you are a shill for Hills. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. I gave you one example. No, you didn't. You didn't post one quote that proved I "put words in your mouth." In fact, in the glaringly erroneous example you used I clearly stated that you "failed to mention." That means that you *didn't* say something and can in no way, shape or form be called "putting words in your mouth." Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray
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