Feeding questions

Wendy wrote:
"Joe Canuck" wrote in message
. ..

I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a
minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have
undiagnosed CRF the phosphorous will speed the disease along.


Phosphorous? (Human ears perk up) We lost our 8 year old cat last week. He
went from *appearing* to be fine (eating, drinking, using the box, acting
normal) to being on deaths doorstep in 12 hours. He was in total kidney
failure, liver failure you name it. One of the test results that was through
the roof was phosphorous. Our vet thought he must have ingested something he
shouldn't have but for the life of me I can't figure out what. The vet
suggested laundry soap, Tylenol/aspirin/Aleve. My laundry detergent is
phosphate free, nobody uses aspirin around here, I guess someone could have
accidentally dropped a Tylenol or Aleve but nobody was aware of doing so.
It's driving me nuts. I would very much like to track down what he got into
so that none of the others get into it too.

Wendy



I am sorry to hear about your sudden lose. :-(

Total kidney failure and a very high phosphorous level after testing by
the vet?

Kidneys lose their ability to get rid of excessive phosphorous from the
blood when they start to malfunction. The kidneys end up working
overtime to get rid of the phosphorous which they won't be able to do...
becomes a vicious circle and the phosphorous builds and builds which in
turn accelerates the progression of kidney failure.

What food were you feeding, that may or may not shed some clues.

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

Alison Perera wrote:
In article ,
(GAUBSTER2) wrote:


Dear Chris.

You are wrong.

Very, very wrong. And it's getting on my nerves. No emoticons here.

In fact, post proof or retract your statement that ""All life stage"
foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult
or senior animals."


What's getting on my nerves is that this is SO easy to understand. ANY food
that is labelled "all life stages" (according to the AAFCO statement) has
passed the minimum requirements to sustain the most demanding stage of
life--the growth (kitten) stage. An "all life stage" food may contain levels
of nutrients that are more appropriate for a kitten and not appropriate
(excesses of nutrients) for an adult or senior cat (which may require lower
levels of certain nutrients, not higher).


This *may* be true. IT IS NOT NECESSARILY SO. If you would like to
maintain that ""All life stage" foods **have to contain** nutrient
levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals" you are
going to have to post hard proof.

Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the
growth stage.


A product bearing the label, "Animal feeding tests per AAFCO's feeding
procedures substantiate that this product provides complete and balanced
nutrition for growth", has been fed to 8 or more kittens for 10 weeks.

It didn't cause anemia.

It didn't cause decreased blood taurine levels.

It allowed the kittens to grow at a rate deemed acceptable to the AAFCO.

Ten measly weeks of not stunting kittens.

And from that, you extrapolate that it's inappropriate for an adult or
senior cat?

May be inappropriate due to higher levels of some nutrients. Phosphorous
would be the most obvious example here.


Ridiculous.

-Alison in OH


--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

Alison Perera wrote:
In article ,
(GAUBSTER2) wrote:


Dear Chris.

You are wrong.

Very, very wrong. And it's getting on my nerves. No emoticons here.

In fact, post proof or retract your statement that ""All life stage"
foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult
or senior animals."


What's getting on my nerves is that this is SO easy to understand. ANY food
that is labelled "all life stages" (according to the AAFCO statement) has
passed the minimum requirements to sustain the most demanding stage of
life--the growth (kitten) stage. An "all life stage" food may contain levels
of nutrients that are more appropriate for a kitten and not appropriate
(excesses of nutrients) for an adult or senior cat (which may require lower
levels of certain nutrients, not higher).


This *may* be true. IT IS NOT NECESSARILY SO. If you would like to
maintain that ""All life stage" foods **have to contain** nutrient
levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals" you are
going to have to post hard proof.

Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the
growth stage.


A product bearing the label, "Animal feeding tests per AAFCO's feeding
procedures substantiate that this product provides complete and balanced
nutrition for growth", has been fed to 8 or more kittens for 10 weeks.

It didn't cause anemia.

It didn't cause decreased blood taurine levels.

It allowed the kittens to grow at a rate deemed acceptable to the AAFCO.

Ten measly weeks of not stunting kittens.

And from that, you extrapolate that it's inappropriate for an adult or
senior cat?

May be inappropriate due to higher levels of some nutrients. Phosphorous
would be the most obvious example here.


Ridiculous.

-Alison in OH


--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

Tiggy has gone outside the box a few times in the last few years mostly on
the days when she's really walking stiffly. However, those occasions it's
been in just one spot. This morning she left some in two different spots in
the bedroom, one in the living room and I caught her in the act of leaving
another present in the living room. I suspect Tiggy is displeased.

We have three litter boxes going and have been cleaning them out daily.

W

"PawsForThought" wrote in message
...
From: "Wendy"


I think Tiggy is totally
traumatized as she took to pooping in various location around the house
this
morning - on purpose.

Is this the first time this has happened? How many litter boxes do you
have?




Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Tiggy has gone outside the box a few times in the last few years mostly on
the days when she's really walking stiffly. However, those occasions it's
been in just one spot. This morning she left some in two different spots in
the bedroom, one in the living room and I caught her in the act of leaving
another present in the living room. I suspect Tiggy is displeased.

We have three litter boxes going and have been cleaning them out daily.

W

"PawsForThought" wrote in message
...
From: "Wendy"


I think Tiggy is totally
traumatized as she took to pooping in various location around the house
this
morning - on purpose.

Is this the first time this has happened? How many litter boxes do you
have?




Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

He was on Science Diet. He hadn't been showing symptoms that I could detect
previous to his getting so sick. He was using the box on the same schedule
as always. He was drinking and eating normally that morning. There was
nothing abnormal with his stool or urine that I could see. I had a 13 yr.
old cat die years ago from kidney failure and she had been making more than
usual trips to the box for a while before she died. I didn't know what that
meant then but have been on the lookout for it since.

W

"Joe Canuck" wrote in message
. ..
Wendy wrote:
"Joe Canuck" wrote in message
. ..

I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a
minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have
undiagnosed CRF the phosphorous will speed the disease along.


Phosphorous? (Human ears perk up) We lost our 8 year old cat last week. He
went from *appearing* to be fine (eating, drinking, using the box, acting
normal) to being on deaths doorstep in 12 hours. He was in total kidney
failure, liver failure you name it. One of the test results that was
through
the roof was phosphorous. Our vet thought he must have ingested something
he
shouldn't have but for the life of me I can't figure out what. The vet
suggested laundry soap, Tylenol/aspirin/Aleve. My laundry detergent is
phosphate free, nobody uses aspirin around here, I guess someone could
have
accidentally dropped a Tylenol or Aleve but nobody was aware of doing so.
It's driving me nuts. I would very much like to track down what he got
into
so that none of the others get into it too.

Wendy



I am sorry to hear about your sudden lose. :-(

Total kidney failure and a very high phosphorous level after testing by
the vet?

Kidneys lose their ability to get rid of excessive phosphorous from the
blood when they start to malfunction. The kidneys end up working
overtime to get rid of the phosphorous which they won't be able to do...
becomes a vicious circle and the phosphorous builds and builds which in
turn accelerates the progression of kidney failure.

What food were you feeding, that may or may not shed some clues.

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

He was on Science Diet. He hadn't been showing symptoms that I could detect
previous to his getting so sick. He was using the box on the same schedule
as always. He was drinking and eating normally that morning. There was
nothing abnormal with his stool or urine that I could see. I had a 13 yr.
old cat die years ago from kidney failure and she had been making more than
usual trips to the box for a while before she died. I didn't know what that
meant then but have been on the lookout for it since.

W

"Joe Canuck" wrote in message
. ..
Wendy wrote:
"Joe Canuck" wrote in message
. ..

I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a
minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have
undiagnosed CRF the phosphorous will speed the disease along.


Phosphorous? (Human ears perk up) We lost our 8 year old cat last week. He
went from *appearing* to be fine (eating, drinking, using the box, acting
normal) to being on deaths doorstep in 12 hours. He was in total kidney
failure, liver failure you name it. One of the test results that was
through
the roof was phosphorous. Our vet thought he must have ingested something
he
shouldn't have but for the life of me I can't figure out what. The vet
suggested laundry soap, Tylenol/aspirin/Aleve. My laundry detergent is
phosphate free, nobody uses aspirin around here, I guess someone could
have
accidentally dropped a Tylenol or Aleve but nobody was aware of doing so.
It's driving me nuts. I would very much like to track down what he got
into
so that none of the others get into it too.

Wendy



I am sorry to hear about your sudden lose. :-(

Total kidney failure and a very high phosphorous level after testing by
the vet?

Kidneys lose their ability to get rid of excessive phosphorous from the
blood when they start to malfunction. The kidneys end up working
overtime to get rid of the phosphorous which they won't be able to do...
becomes a vicious circle and the phosphorous builds and builds which in
turn accelerates the progression of kidney failure.

What food were you feeding, that may or may not shed some clues.

--
"Its the bugs that keep it running."
-Joe Canuck

In article ,
Joe Canuck wrote:

Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the
growth stage.

Non-sequitur.

I am referring to products that bear the AAFCO label for feed trials
performed by AAFCO standards. Nutrients **do not** play a role, either
via analysis or via formulation to fit a profile.

-Alison in OH

In article ,
Joe Canuck wrote:

Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the
growth stage.

Non-sequitur.

I am referring to products that bear the AAFCO label for feed trials
performed by AAFCO standards. Nutrients **do not** play a role, either
via analysis or via formulation to fit a profile.

-Alison in OH

(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message ...
(...)

I'm sorry that you disagree. Steve, in your other posts you even conceded
some of my points. Why now, are you forgetting that?

The same reason you are forgetting that you conceded some of my
points, perhaps!

Mind you, I'm not sure what points I was supposed to have 'conceded'.
Enlighten me!


I suppose I could provide a
list of names of people that no one should take what they say at face value
either?

You could provide a list of famous cheeses of the world, and it would
probably be a list of building materials.


For some reason, it seems fashionable to gang up on me. Perhaps the
arguments I make are persuasive and true (although not politically correct!)

The reason people are 'ganging up' on you (hey! are we back in the
playground then?) is because you are generally wrong, and are
exceptionally reluctant to see anything in its true shades of grey.


Food composition et al: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/


I checked that page

Eventually!

and some of the information is wrong. I wonder what else
is wrong?

Shrug. You are free to take what you expect to find.


Just one example is the "unnatural preservative" column....Science
Diet uses natural preservatives in all of their foods now...they have for
about a year

Gosh! Is SD pandering to the knit-your-own food camp? How ...
unscientific ...

Heh.

(...)
What other information is outdated on that page?

I don't know, although the site has been updated within the past year.
I imagine that most foods will not change greatly in their composition
in the mid-term. However, uncertainty about this is why I've mailed
some of the companies whose food I feed - a double check.

You see, unlike you, I have no axe to grind. All I'm interested in is
what's 'best' for my cats. Simple.

(...)

Maybe not, but why feed higher levels of nutrients to an animal that doesn't
require them? Hmm? If the internal organs have to work that much harder to
"process the excesses", is that really proper nutrition?

First, you don't know that the animal does not require them.

Second, you don't know that any nutritional excess does cause the
'internal organs' to work 'harder' to process the excess.

Third, you don't know at what levels 'excess' occurs.

Fourth, you don't know if 'excess' calorific density is even a
meaningful concept. And so on.

You snipped the other quote from the FDA, but here's a human-based
analogy:

Humans have an RDA for iron. For most humans, the RDA is correct.
However, if you are active or athletic, the RDA for iron may be
inadequate - you can develop sports anaemia.

Individual differences, you see.


Not to mention the
fact that many times, a cat may be in sub-clinical renal failure and higher
levels of phosphorus (only one example) may be deleterious to that animal.

You keep coming back to phos. I have no quibble with feeding a
'sensible' level of phos. (Although, AFAIK, a minority of cats die
through CRF). To obtain a sensible level of phos, you do not need to
feed SD.


Using your example, a healthy teenager or young adult could abuse themselves
by intaking higher levels of fat, sodium, sugar, etc. Would that be bad if
they are healthy?

Well, you've got quite a mix of 'nutrients' there. The short answer is
that humans can use a vast range of diets with no problems - eg, diets
can range from very high carb, to very high fat. The crux is really
taking in the correct number of calories - and a sufficient level of
vitamins, minerals, and so forth.

I believe the same applies to a cat. Take a diet of 50% protein and
25% fat, and a diet of 45% protein and 20% fat. I suggest that these
composition differences are unimportant, as long as the cat is taking
in the correct number of cals.

Also bear in mind that I'm not saying that it's OK to feed a diet with
3% phos and 3% sodium - the main crux of what I'm saying is:

- The labelling on a cat (i.e., maint, ALS, whatever) tells you
basically nothing about the composition of a food.

- Feeding diets with different proportions of fat, protein, (carb,
even), vitamin levels, etc. ain't a problem, unless - for example -
the vitamin levels are up into the pathological levels. The latter is
not, AFAIK, true of any cat foods.

Steve.