declawing

Katra wrote:

That's pretty much it...
I have mixed feelings about the entire situation.
That baby is SO important to me... Would I maim Shade if I had really
known the facts? I probably would have at least given soft paws
another
try first. We only tried them once.

I'm glad to hear that. And there are so many other things to try: Feliway,
changing your interaction with him, changing his environment, and probably
other things that I can't think of right now (but some of the others might
be able to list them). At the very least, the cat could be kept in another
room temporarily whenever baby needed to be unsupervised for a few minutes.
I know a baby is SO important, but if you're going to have a cat, that cat's
welfare has to be at least as important, or you're better off not having it.
I know it might seem extreme to compare the cat's welfare to the baby's, but
a pet is chosen just like a baby, is your responsibility, and depends on you
to look out for it's welfare. I'm not judging you, I'm just saying that,
while I understand why you did what you did this time, I hope you wouldn't
consider it an option in the future under any but medical circumstances. It
just seems like there's got to be a better answer that would still keep the
baby safe, but without having to put the cat through that.

Anyway, what's done is done; I just hope you can help Shade through any
difficulties he's still having, or may be having due to the declaw. I know
he sounds like a real Booger, and he's been that way for awhile, but don't
give up on him; hopefully, one of those articles might have something
helpful to offer. It just seems like there must be a reason for his
behavior, if only you could find out what it is....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

Katra wrote:

That's pretty much it...
I have mixed feelings about the entire situation.
That baby is SO important to me... Would I maim Shade if I had really
known the facts? I probably would have at least given soft paws
another
try first. We only tried them once.

I'm glad to hear that. And there are so many other things to try: Feliway,
changing your interaction with him, changing his environment, and probably
other things that I can't think of right now (but some of the others might
be able to list them). At the very least, the cat could be kept in another
room temporarily whenever baby needed to be unsupervised for a few minutes.
I know a baby is SO important, but if you're going to have a cat, that cat's
welfare has to be at least as important, or you're better off not having it.
I know it might seem extreme to compare the cat's welfare to the baby's, but
a pet is chosen just like a baby, is your responsibility, and depends on you
to look out for it's welfare. I'm not judging you, I'm just saying that,
while I understand why you did what you did this time, I hope you wouldn't
consider it an option in the future under any but medical circumstances. It
just seems like there's got to be a better answer that would still keep the
baby safe, but without having to put the cat through that.

Anyway, what's done is done; I just hope you can help Shade through any
difficulties he's still having, or may be having due to the declaw. I know
he sounds like a real Booger, and he's been that way for awhile, but don't
give up on him; hopefully, one of those articles might have something
helpful to offer. It just seems like there must be a reason for his
behavior, if only you could find out what it is....

Ann

--

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

In , Alison Smiley
Perera wrote:

| However, the illness/compulsion side of collecting leads the afflicted
| person to claim loud and long that no matter how less-than-ideal the
| circumstances might be for the animals in their care, at least they are
| better off than dead or in a shelter. This warped outlook can come
| across online, and definitely rings a bell with some of your
| protestations.

There's a little more to it, I think. The outlook doesn't necessarily
start out warped; it becomes warped. A fullblown collector is mentally
ill, or at least suffering some sort of OCD. The information we get in
the news or online is skewed to the particularly outrageous cases (as in
"Man Bites Dog"), and so recognizing collector behavior becomes trickier
(as in "it can't be that if it isn't as bad as that".)

What happens in many more cases, though, is that people start with the
best of intentions and wind up in a situation out of control.

Someone I know - call her Teacher Lady - had two cats only a few years
ago. She now has 19. This was after she started "rescuing" - which
started, innocently enough, by helping some friends to feed a local
feral colony. This was a home grown TNR project. One of the principals
is also a volunteer with a wellknown rescue organization, so she had an
"in" for facilities to adopt out kittens. The basic idea was returning
the adults and trapping, socializing and finding homes for the kittens.
Teacher Lady naturally volunteered to help with the socialization and
fostering.

Except that none of the kittens that came to her apartment have left.

Five of the 19 are from another heart-string tugger, where she talked
herself into taking a litter from a family on welfare. A few more
weren't even kittens when she took them from the local colony - she
talked herself into thinking that they would be better off with her than
in the colony - the classic mistake of the "traditional" rescuer.

She has a decent sized 1BR apartment (three rooms railroad style down
the length of a brwonstone), and tries to care for her cats. Plenty of
litterboxes, cleaned twice a day. Wellness canned for basic diet,
Premium Edge crunchies for snacks. All spayed/neutered.

But cats have taken over her life. Wake up, take care of cats, go to
work, come home, take care of cats, go to sleep. Her furniture is all
taped up and moved out of the way for ease of vacuuming. She lives in
fear of her landlord (an elderly lady directly below) to whom she has
claimed that she has only five cats.

And she still wants to "help" cats - by pleading with other people to
help her help the cats. Yet another colony in the area came to her
attention recently, and she wanted take on yet more kittens. Talk to
her, however, and she will freely admit that she is in over her head.

Collector, or no?

I've seen other cases firsthand of this type - where pity and good
intentions create disasters. One such was aired on Animal Precinct
(part of episode #214, first broadcast in January 2003). Nurse Lady
lives in Brooklyn, in a 3-story house owned by her mother. Mom lives on
the first floor, Nurse Lady on the second, sister and a tenant on the
third. A small 2BR unit at the back of the second has been unoccupied
ever since the rest of the family moved out. One day, Nurse Lady
rescued a pregnant stray off the street and put her in the empty unit.
There were 8 kittens in the litter. At some point, she managed to grab
the mother and get her spayed; but when the time came to get the kittens
fixed, she couldn't catch them. For all practical purposes, they were
feral, even though they had spent all their lives in the apartment.

Those 8 became 80 by the time my group was asked by the ASPCA to catch
them for two S/N days with the ASPCA's mobile clinic van. Pictures:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...639&uid=514878

Nurse Lady freely admits that she let the situation get out of hand,
that she needed help. The ASPCA took 10 kittens. There are 70 cats
left.

Collector, or no?

In , Alison Smiley
Perera wrote:

| However, the illness/compulsion side of collecting leads the afflicted
| person to claim loud and long that no matter how less-than-ideal the
| circumstances might be for the animals in their care, at least they are
| better off than dead or in a shelter. This warped outlook can come
| across online, and definitely rings a bell with some of your
| protestations.

There's a little more to it, I think. The outlook doesn't necessarily
start out warped; it becomes warped. A fullblown collector is mentally
ill, or at least suffering some sort of OCD. The information we get in
the news or online is skewed to the particularly outrageous cases (as in
"Man Bites Dog"), and so recognizing collector behavior becomes trickier
(as in "it can't be that if it isn't as bad as that".)

What happens in many more cases, though, is that people start with the
best of intentions and wind up in a situation out of control.

Someone I know - call her Teacher Lady - had two cats only a few years
ago. She now has 19. This was after she started "rescuing" - which
started, innocently enough, by helping some friends to feed a local
feral colony. This was a home grown TNR project. One of the principals
is also a volunteer with a wellknown rescue organization, so she had an
"in" for facilities to adopt out kittens. The basic idea was returning
the adults and trapping, socializing and finding homes for the kittens.
Teacher Lady naturally volunteered to help with the socialization and
fostering.

Except that none of the kittens that came to her apartment have left.

Five of the 19 are from another heart-string tugger, where she talked
herself into taking a litter from a family on welfare. A few more
weren't even kittens when she took them from the local colony - she
talked herself into thinking that they would be better off with her than
in the colony - the classic mistake of the "traditional" rescuer.

She has a decent sized 1BR apartment (three rooms railroad style down
the length of a brwonstone), and tries to care for her cats. Plenty of
litterboxes, cleaned twice a day. Wellness canned for basic diet,
Premium Edge crunchies for snacks. All spayed/neutered.

But cats have taken over her life. Wake up, take care of cats, go to
work, come home, take care of cats, go to sleep. Her furniture is all
taped up and moved out of the way for ease of vacuuming. She lives in
fear of her landlord (an elderly lady directly below) to whom she has
claimed that she has only five cats.

And she still wants to "help" cats - by pleading with other people to
help her help the cats. Yet another colony in the area came to her
attention recently, and she wanted take on yet more kittens. Talk to
her, however, and she will freely admit that she is in over her head.

Collector, or no?

I've seen other cases firsthand of this type - where pity and good
intentions create disasters. One such was aired on Animal Precinct
(part of episode #214, first broadcast in January 2003). Nurse Lady
lives in Brooklyn, in a 3-story house owned by her mother. Mom lives on
the first floor, Nurse Lady on the second, sister and a tenant on the
third. A small 2BR unit at the back of the second has been unoccupied
ever since the rest of the family moved out. One day, Nurse Lady
rescued a pregnant stray off the street and put her in the empty unit.
There were 8 kittens in the litter. At some point, she managed to grab
the mother and get her spayed; but when the time came to get the kittens
fixed, she couldn't catch them. For all practical purposes, they were
feral, even though they had spent all their lives in the apartment.

Those 8 became 80 by the time my group was asked by the ASPCA to catch
them for two S/N days with the ASPCA's mobile clinic van. Pictures:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...639&uid=514878

Nurse Lady freely admits that she let the situation get out of hand,
that she needed help. The ASPCA took 10 kittens. There are 70 cats
left.

Collector, or no?

In , Alison Smiley
Perera wrote:

| My cats get about 6 ounces of premium (ie calorie-dense and highly
| digestible) canned food each per day, or sometimes 3 oz canned and
| 1/8-1/4 c. kibble.

I have 4 cats, ranging in weight from 9.5 to 12.5 lbs (the smallest is
heavy for her apparent size, the largest light for his.) I split 3 cans
of Wellness per day for them, with occasional dry food snacks (either
California Natural or Petguard Premium.) Of course, they inhale the
crunchies, but they don't seem hungry and they are all maintaining their
weight - even my CRF cat.

| Since this will undoubtedly raise your food bill I'd like to offer
| some unsolicited advice on reducing your vet bill concurrently.
| [Good links omitted].

There are other factors worth considering.

Feeding cats good food is not necessarily a full increase in cost. Cats
generally eat *less* when fed good food than when fed junk, because
their dietary needs are met by less. That is, you don't give cats the
same *amount* of good food as the junk they were eating. This is a
savings.

Further, good food will have a beneficial impact on overall health,
which will result in fewer trips to the vet. Another savings.

Penny-pinching on something as basic as food is a classic case of penny
wise, pound foolish.

In , Alison Smiley
Perera wrote:

| My cats get about 6 ounces of premium (ie calorie-dense and highly
| digestible) canned food each per day, or sometimes 3 oz canned and
| 1/8-1/4 c. kibble.

I have 4 cats, ranging in weight from 9.5 to 12.5 lbs (the smallest is
heavy for her apparent size, the largest light for his.) I split 3 cans
of Wellness per day for them, with occasional dry food snacks (either
California Natural or Petguard Premium.) Of course, they inhale the
crunchies, but they don't seem hungry and they are all maintaining their
weight - even my CRF cat.

| Since this will undoubtedly raise your food bill I'd like to offer
| some unsolicited advice on reducing your vet bill concurrently.
| [Good links omitted].

There are other factors worth considering.

Feeding cats good food is not necessarily a full increase in cost. Cats
generally eat *less* when fed good food than when fed junk, because
their dietary needs are met by less. That is, you don't give cats the
same *amount* of good food as the junk they were eating. This is a
savings.

Further, good food will have a beneficial impact on overall health,
which will result in fewer trips to the vet. Another savings.

Penny-pinching on something as basic as food is a classic case of penny
wise, pound foolish.

Arjun Ray wrote in
:

Feeding cats good food is not necessarily a full increase in cost. Cats
generally eat *less* when fed good food than when fed junk, because
their dietary needs are met by less. That is, you don't give cats the
same *amount* of good food as the junk they were eating. This is a
savings.


Not only this, but other than those HUGE bags of cheap corn-filled cat
food, most of the grocery store brands come in small bags. The premium
brands have larger bags, too, and make the savings managable. I remember
balking at a large bag of Wellness costing $28 but it lasts a long time
(well, with 3 cats it does. I guess 36 cats would wolf it down in no time)



--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Arjun Ray wrote in
:

Feeding cats good food is not necessarily a full increase in cost. Cats
generally eat *less* when fed good food than when fed junk, because
their dietary needs are met by less. That is, you don't give cats the
same *amount* of good food as the junk they were eating. This is a
savings.


Not only this, but other than those HUGE bags of cheap corn-filled cat
food, most of the grocery store brands come in small bags. The premium
brands have larger bags, too, and make the savings managable. I remember
balking at a large bag of Wellness costing $28 but it lasts a long time
(well, with 3 cats it does. I guess 36 cats would wolf it down in no time)



--
Cheryl

"I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow."
- President Woodrow Wilson

Alison Smiley Perera wrote in message ...
In article ,
Katra wrote:

Well, here I am being trolled again. But in case this isn't a
fabrication, I'll say yeah. I understand the impulse, the reflex due to
shock, that might lead someone to follow a drastic course of action like
this. However, I don't understand your need to aggressively defend said
course of action. Coming on this newsgroup and saying "Tell me it was OK
to declaw this cat" is like saying to a group of animal welfare
activists that it's OK to club baby seals. You will never change
someone's mind, the best you can do is get them very very worked up and
upset about the whole ordeal. Which was apparently your point.

You are not being trolled dear... The bodybuilding lists are fair
game. ;-)
The cat, dog, bird and poultry lists are important to me personally.

Seeking approval, no, just understanding... sigh Ok, I screwed up.
I'm sorry.
I won't do it again now that I know.

Actually, baby seal is pretty tasty and the fur is nice!
Just kidding. ;-)


Food. Canned food and amount. To date, I've judged the amount of canned
food my gang gets by how much they eat. I used to feed 4 cans and they
licked the pans clean and went looking for more. I increased it to 5
cans, and now they leave some. The large cans of Whiskas are 21.2 oz. x
5 cans is 106 oz. for 36 cats, comes out to 2.94 oz. per cat.

Someone else calculated it earlier and they were way off. ;-) I think
they were thinking of the smaller can size...

Is this enough? Should I offer canned food twice per day instead of only
once? I've already been told I should discontinue the free-fed kibbles.
I'm not sure how the cats would feel about that, considering how
strongly they let me know about it if I accidentally let the bowls run
out. ;-) I like to let the kibble crocks get as low as possible before
re-filling to avoid leaving stale food.

My cats get about 6 ounces of premium (ie calorie-dense and highly
digestible) canned food each per day, or sometimes 3 oz canned and
1/8-1/4 c. kibble. But I don't have 36 cats to feed. If I did I think
I'd go to a good yet economical brand of kibble (Sensible Choice comes
to mind) and fill the bowl once per day, probably in the evening, with
an appropriate amount for the number of cats to be fed. Then once per
day I'd feed each animal an individual portion of canned food.

So I'm to set up 36 dishes??? Um, okee.
Right now, I have 10 cats that need their own dishes. The rest share 5
"community" pans. There is always plenty left for the ones that wait
for the others. The canned feeding thing lasts thru the night which is
why I do it at night while we are asleep... That way they have at
least 6 hours to finish it off, and it actually takes that long.


Since this will undoubtedly raise your food bill I'd like to offer some
unsolicited advice on reducing your vet bill concurrently. By going to
the reduced vaccine protocol now followed by vet hospitals (TXA&M,
http://www.doglogic.com/vaccinearts.htm; CSU
http://www.vth.colostate.edu/vth/savp2.html) and professional
organizations (AAFP, http://aafponline.org/about/guidelines.htm) you can
cut your cost for vaccines to a third or less.

Um...... it probably would, but as I said, I'm not taking in any new
cats. At least 2/3 of them are over 9 years of age and I REALLY prefer
to get that annual vet exam. :-( It picks up minor problems like
Dolly's fungal infection on her shoulders. I thought it was flea
dermatitis initially, but it did not really feel or look right. I was
right. The vet shined a woods lamp on it and she lit up like a
christmas tree! She is cleared up now with the proper medication. I've
no clue how she got it.

I expect to lose most of my babies over the next 5 years. Not a happy
thought, but that is reality... I hate to give up that annual vet
visit for any of them.


By learning how to do a simple physical at home for your young healthy
cats (here from a vet school curriculum
http://education.vetmed.vt.edu/Curri...ct/Techniques/
index.htm and here from a pet first aid site
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...&S=0&C=0&A=292) you
might not even have to bring them in more than every few years. The
physical is the most important part of the visit though, and not
everyone wants to risk skipping it.

Exactly. :-)
I get the cat physical done with the vaccinations, along with any
needed bloodwork.


In addition spending one-on-one time with each animal will help you to
recognize problems early. This might be tough without bringing your
"problem cats" in from off the porch.

Hee. See, you don't understand... The "back porch" kitties get daily
love and care. I sit back there and get kitty mugged, everyone pounces
on me for petting. Most of them are boys and boys are more snuggly
than girls as a general rule. I also do a visual check and count when
the canned food feeding is done every night. That is how I knew that
Diana was missing, that kitty in the drawer episode. I did not lose
track of her, I just could not FIND her!
I also found that Laural was missing night before last. I found her
laying under the dining room table, unable to walk properly. She is
now at the vet getting treatment for what appears to be a spinal
problem. She is 12.

Spotting health problems has never been an issue. It's too important.


For your older cats I'd do at least one vet visit, preferably two, per
year and a basic geriatric blood chemistry profile yearly as well. I'd
start that routine at 8-10 years of age. This way you catch problems
early and avoid expensive treatments.

HTH,
Alison in OH

Yep. Lab work is done at least annually on any cat over 10 years of
age...
Why do you think that that annual is so high? :-)

Thanks,
Katra

Alison Smiley Perera wrote in message ...
In article ,
Katra wrote:

Well, here I am being trolled again. But in case this isn't a
fabrication, I'll say yeah. I understand the impulse, the reflex due to
shock, that might lead someone to follow a drastic course of action like
this. However, I don't understand your need to aggressively defend said
course of action. Coming on this newsgroup and saying "Tell me it was OK
to declaw this cat" is like saying to a group of animal welfare
activists that it's OK to club baby seals. You will never change
someone's mind, the best you can do is get them very very worked up and
upset about the whole ordeal. Which was apparently your point.

You are not being trolled dear... The bodybuilding lists are fair
game. ;-)
The cat, dog, bird and poultry lists are important to me personally.

Seeking approval, no, just understanding... sigh Ok, I screwed up.
I'm sorry.
I won't do it again now that I know.

Actually, baby seal is pretty tasty and the fur is nice!
Just kidding. ;-)


Food. Canned food and amount. To date, I've judged the amount of canned
food my gang gets by how much they eat. I used to feed 4 cans and they
licked the pans clean and went looking for more. I increased it to 5
cans, and now they leave some. The large cans of Whiskas are 21.2 oz. x
5 cans is 106 oz. for 36 cats, comes out to 2.94 oz. per cat.

Someone else calculated it earlier and they were way off. ;-) I think
they were thinking of the smaller can size...

Is this enough? Should I offer canned food twice per day instead of only
once? I've already been told I should discontinue the free-fed kibbles.
I'm not sure how the cats would feel about that, considering how
strongly they let me know about it if I accidentally let the bowls run
out. ;-) I like to let the kibble crocks get as low as possible before
re-filling to avoid leaving stale food.

My cats get about 6 ounces of premium (ie calorie-dense and highly
digestible) canned food each per day, or sometimes 3 oz canned and
1/8-1/4 c. kibble. But I don't have 36 cats to feed. If I did I think
I'd go to a good yet economical brand of kibble (Sensible Choice comes
to mind) and fill the bowl once per day, probably in the evening, with
an appropriate amount for the number of cats to be fed. Then once per
day I'd feed each animal an individual portion of canned food.

So I'm to set up 36 dishes??? Um, okee.
Right now, I have 10 cats that need their own dishes. The rest share 5
"community" pans. There is always plenty left for the ones that wait
for the others. The canned feeding thing lasts thru the night which is
why I do it at night while we are asleep... That way they have at
least 6 hours to finish it off, and it actually takes that long.


Since this will undoubtedly raise your food bill I'd like to offer some
unsolicited advice on reducing your vet bill concurrently. By going to
the reduced vaccine protocol now followed by vet hospitals (TXA&M,
http://www.doglogic.com/vaccinearts.htm; CSU
http://www.vth.colostate.edu/vth/savp2.html) and professional
organizations (AAFP, http://aafponline.org/about/guidelines.htm) you can
cut your cost for vaccines to a third or less.

Um...... it probably would, but as I said, I'm not taking in any new
cats. At least 2/3 of them are over 9 years of age and I REALLY prefer
to get that annual vet exam. :-( It picks up minor problems like
Dolly's fungal infection on her shoulders. I thought it was flea
dermatitis initially, but it did not really feel or look right. I was
right. The vet shined a woods lamp on it and she lit up like a
christmas tree! She is cleared up now with the proper medication. I've
no clue how she got it.

I expect to lose most of my babies over the next 5 years. Not a happy
thought, but that is reality... I hate to give up that annual vet
visit for any of them.


By learning how to do a simple physical at home for your young healthy
cats (here from a vet school curriculum
http://education.vetmed.vt.edu/Curri...ct/Techniques/
index.htm and here from a pet first aid site
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...&S=0&C=0&A=292) you
might not even have to bring them in more than every few years. The
physical is the most important part of the visit though, and not
everyone wants to risk skipping it.

Exactly. :-)
I get the cat physical done with the vaccinations, along with any
needed bloodwork.


In addition spending one-on-one time with each animal will help you to
recognize problems early. This might be tough without bringing your
"problem cats" in from off the porch.

Hee. See, you don't understand... The "back porch" kitties get daily
love and care. I sit back there and get kitty mugged, everyone pounces
on me for petting. Most of them are boys and boys are more snuggly
than girls as a general rule. I also do a visual check and count when
the canned food feeding is done every night. That is how I knew that
Diana was missing, that kitty in the drawer episode. I did not lose
track of her, I just could not FIND her!
I also found that Laural was missing night before last. I found her
laying under the dining room table, unable to walk properly. She is
now at the vet getting treatment for what appears to be a spinal
problem. She is 12.

Spotting health problems has never been an issue. It's too important.


For your older cats I'd do at least one vet visit, preferably two, per
year and a basic geriatric blood chemistry profile yearly as well. I'd
start that routine at 8-10 years of age. This way you catch problems
early and avoid expensive treatments.

HTH,
Alison in OH

Yep. Lab work is done at least annually on any cat over 10 years of
age...
Why do you think that that annual is so high? :-)

Thanks,
Katra