Some Initial Jottings Re Struvite Crystals + Food

I have started going back over the posts made on this topic and
thought I would post some of my jottings here for comment and for
other people's benefit.

Food Composition
recommended ranges:
phosphorous 0.5-0.9
sodium 0.2-0.6*
magnesium 0.04-0.10

Hill's s/d:
phosphorous 0.52
sodium 0.86*
magnesium 0.041

*Moderate sodium is not a problem for cats with struvite crystals
(but IS a problem for cats with oxalate crystals)

What We Want to Achieve:
Urine pH needs to be between 6.2 and 6.3 or 6.4 for maintenance.
Needs to be about 6.0 to dissolve crystals that are already
present. BUT note that very acidic diets can promote calcium
oxalate crystals and uroliths, which are much more dangerous than
struvite crystals.

Recommended Diet and Questions:
Canned food seems to be better than dried, since cats who eat
canned food have much more dilute urine.

s/d is for temporary feeding only, and dissolves the crystals.
How frequently should a cat be monitored on s/d?

c/d-s (now just c/d-and what does this change imply?) is for
long-term prevention and maintenance.
How frequently does a cat on c/d need to be monitored?

Note: there is no problem transitioning from s/d to c/d.

Liquid intake is important. Frequent urination is good because
particles are less likely to form crystals; it may also decrease
the incidence of bladder infections.

Does One Want to Use Hill's (esp. for life)?:
There are questions about Hill's composition. While I can
understand why a lower-protein diet might be indicated (even
though cats are carnivores, and this seems odd), why does Hill's
use such low-quality meat? I have not seen any denial of that,
and it would be nice if the meat in the formulas was human-grade
and not "floor sweepings".

Adding Other Food in Addition to the Hill's:
Adding some other canned food may negate the benefits of the
prescription diet.

Possible Options Other than Hill's (for maintenance):
NOTE: I have not looked into these yet, these are just notes!
Abady Alternatives
Eukanoba low pH/s?
IVD Prescription Food
Medi-cal Preventative Formula
Science Diet Light
Waltham Feline Urinary SO 30
Wysong Uretic Formula

Other Possible Approaches:
Remember: these are notes; I was trying to jot down both sides!
Amitryptyline, which would decrease pain associated with urination
and allow cat to urinate more easily (if not plug).
Add a bit (1/8 tsp or so) of vitamin C to food. (Another person
says 250-mg pills [smallest possible] two times per day. NOT the
chewable type. BUT cats don't like it and it may be dangerous to
do this, and some question whether or not that actually acidifies
the urine.
Cranberry-Blueberry extract.
Methio-form tablets, which cat may think are a treat. BUT this
can cause methemoglobinemia, hemolytic anemia, etc.

What We Need to Avoid:
Protein- and fat-rich diets, which elevate the ingestion of
calcium and phosphorous, which correlate with kidney failure.
(But meat-based diets acidify the urine, and struvite commonly
forms in alkaline urine and dissolves in acidic urine,
soooooooo????).

Grazing. Each time the cat eats, his/her urine becomes more
alkaline. (Even with s/d and c/d?) Feed two times a day. (How
to change this????)

Other Causes Besides Alkaline Urine:
Bacterial Infection. If there is bacteria inside the crystals,
that is almost always what has initiated the crystal formation.
Crystals need to be dissolved, but getting rid of the infection
(UTI) will [generally?] get rid of the problem. This seems like a
relatively benign scenario. (???)


--
Jean B.

What We Need to Avoid:
Protein- and fat-rich diets, which elevate
the ingestion of calcium and phosphorous,
which correlate with kidney failure.

Cats are carnivores. They are meant to eat a protein and fat rich diet.
There is no evidence that phosphorus causes kidney failure (only that it
can be harmful to cats that *already have* kidney failure) although our
resident Hill's employee repeatedly posts in such a way as to deceive
people into thinking it does. (His next effort is to promote the idea
that protein causes hyperthyroidism.)

If you feed your cat a diet as close as possible to what it is meant to
eat (high quality canned food instead of what basically amounts to
cereal with a little meat thrown in) it is unlikely you'd be having to
ask all these questions.

To make it easy for you, Wellness canned is an excellent food for long
term maintenance and promotes a urine ph of 6.1-6.4. There is no reason
(other than lining your vets pocket) why your cat should have to be on a
low quality prescription food "for life."

I have a cat that was hospitalized twice for blockage and emergency
surgery several years ago. Completely eliminating dry food and putting
him on Wellness canned has eliminated any recurrences.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Jean, I know you are concerned about Mingy not drinking so here are some
observations. I have two cats - Tiger is a very large 6 year old male
and Amber is a full sized 10 year old female. They get a canned food
meal about 6AM and another about 5PM. If I am home at noon Tiger gets a
small sample of the turkey I make my sandwich with and they both get a
few pieces of Wellness dry (lite). At bedtime they again get a few
pieces of the dry. I very rarely see either of them drink water even
though there are 5 water dishes scattered around the house. The level
of the water goes down but I figure this is from evaporation. They
produce plenty of urine so they must get their moisture from the canned
food (Wellness is 78 percent water. (I hate paying 75 cents for a can
that's mostly water))! One good way to get Mingy to eat is to get
several different flavors of canned food so you can find one he likes.
Make sure the food is slightly warmed (about body temp) and you can add
a little water to soften the texture. I would avoid tuna flavor but
salmon would probably be ok. I know you want him to eat the
prescription food but it's more important that he eats something -
anything (but not dry).


---MIKE---

wrote:

What We Need to Avoid:
Protein- and fat-rich diets, which elevate
the ingestion of calcium and phosphorous,
which correlate with kidney failure.

Cats are carnivores. They are meant to eat a protein and fat rich diet.
There is no evidence that phosphorus causes kidney failure (only that it
can be harmful to cats that *already have* kidney failure) although our
resident Hill's employee repeatedly posts in such a way as to deceive
people into thinking it does. (His next effort is to promote the idea
that protein causes hyperthyroidism.)

If you feed your cat a diet as close as possible to what it is meant to
eat (high quality canned food instead of what basically amounts to
cereal with a little meat thrown in) it is unlikely you'd be having to
ask all these questions.

To make it easy for you, Wellness canned is an excellent food for long
term maintenance and promotes a urine ph of 6.1-6.4. There is no reason
(other than lining your vets pocket) why your cat should have to be on a
low quality prescription food "for life."

I have a cat that was hospitalized twice for blockage and emergency
surgery several years ago. Completely eliminating dry food and putting
him on Wellness canned has eliminated any recurrences.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


Thanks, Megan. But I do assume we have to get rid of the crystals
totally first, if he has formed more. It is, indeed, the
maintenance diet that I am most concerned about. Did your cat
have struvite crystals or oxalate crystals?
--
Jean B.

---MIKE--- wrote:

Jean, I know you are concerned about Mingy not drinking so here are some
observations. I have two cats - Tiger is a very large 6 year old male
and Amber is a full sized 10 year old female. They get a canned food
meal about 6AM and another about 5PM. If I am home at noon Tiger gets a
small sample of the turkey I make my sandwich with and they both get a
few pieces of Wellness dry (lite). At bedtime they again get a few
pieces of the dry. I very rarely see either of them drink water even
though there are 5 water dishes scattered around the house. The level
of the water goes down but I figure this is from evaporation. They
produce plenty of urine so they must get their moisture from the canned
food (Wellness is 78 percent water. (I hate paying 75 cents for a can
that's mostly water))! One good way to get Mingy to eat is to get
several different flavors of canned food so you can find one he likes.
Make sure the food is slightly warmed (about body temp) and you can add
a little water to soften the texture. I would avoid tuna flavor but
salmon would probably be ok. I know you want him to eat the
prescription food but it's more important that he eats something -
anything (but not dry).

---MIKE---

Yes, when a cat doesn't eat, the first thought is to get it to
eat. The second thought is to get it to accept whatever it is you
want it to eat. g Good luck, right? I'd be happy to spend 75
cents a can for something Mingy would eat that is good for him.
--
Jean B.

Thanks, Megan. But I do assume we
have to get rid of the crystals totally first,
if he has formed more.

True. However, if he refuses to eat the prescription diet you'll need to
find an alternative. I had very good luck in the past using Methioform
tablets, which is a prescription urinary acidifier, and Wellness canned
along with doing at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. I refuse to
use prescription foods as they are basically low-quality crap and I have
always found alternatives that work just as well.

Food for my cats is one area where I absolutely will not compromise, and
I've seen a huge decrease in the number of vet visits I've had to make
since I went to super premium canned food several years ago. This is
especially important to me as I have a very high population of senior
cats over the age of 11 and having several get sick at once could be
financially catastrophic. Fortunately, feeding high quality canned is
paying off in spades and without exception my cats so far have perfect
bloodwork with no sign of kidney issues or other age related disease
you'd expect to start seeing in cats that are 11-14 years old.

It is, indeed, the maintenance diet that I
am most concerned about. Did your cat
have struvite crystals or oxalate crystals?

Struvite.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

wrote:

Thanks, Megan. But I do assume we
have to get rid of the crystals totally first,
if he has formed more.

True. However, if he refuses to eat the prescription diet you'll need to
find an alternative. I had very good luck in the past using Methioform
tablets, which is a prescription urinary acidifier, and Wellness canned
along with doing at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. I refuse to
use prescription foods as they are basically low-quality crap and I have
always found alternatives that work just as well.

Wow! One hundred mls is a lot! Now we are going to do 10 mls--at
least think it is mls. Have to look at the bag of solution.

Food for my cats is one area where I absolutely will not compromise, and
I've seen a huge decrease in the number of vet visits I've had to make
since I went to super premium canned food several years ago. This is
especially important to me as I have a very high population of senior
cats over the age of 11 and having several get sick at once could be
financially catastrophic. Fortunately, feeding high quality canned is
paying off in spades and without exception my cats so far have perfect
bloodwork with no sign of kidney issues or other age related disease
you'd expect to start seeing in cats that are 11-14 years old.

That's great, and I will surely look into all of this more
thoroughly after we are over the hump. I did get three different
types of food. More on that later.

It is, indeed, the maintenance diet that I
am most concerned about. Did your cat
have struvite crystals or oxalate crystals?

Struvite.

Okay. That's what Mingy has.............

Jean B.

Wow! One hundred mls is a lot! Now we
are going to do 10 mls--at least think it is
mls. Have to look at the bag of solution.

If your vet recommended 10 mls you need to find a new vet, but I'm
guessing you just misunderstood. :-) A bag of fluids contains 1000 mls
of fluid and is marked at 100 ml intervals so I doubt you'd even be able
to measure 10 mls. 100 mls is not much at all and is considered a
"maintenance" dose.

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

wrote:

Wow! One hundred mls is a lot! Now we
are going to do 10 mls--at least think it is
mls. Have to look at the bag of solution.

If your vet recommended 10 mls you need to find a new vet, but I'm
guessing you just misunderstood. :-) A bag of fluids contains 1000 mls
of fluid and is marked at 100 ml intervals so I doubt you'd even be able
to measure 10 mls. 100 mls is not much at all and is considered a
"maintenance" dose.

Megan


Probably not mls--didn't check. I remember the tech said 10, but
she may very well have said that when it is actually 100. Yes,
the bag is marked is marked for 10 doses, so I think we are
actually speaking about the same amount....

--
Jean B.

And I'm still waiting for you to tell us about that crystal ball you
have which lets you know WHICH cat will end up with renal failure.
Since there is not one whit worth of POSITIVE news in feeding high phos
foods - why on earth take the risk in face of one of the most common
killers of cats? It simply makes no sense whatsoever.

As for hyperthyroid issues, the patents are published, the clinical
trials and studies are submitted to peer reviewed journals and slated
for publication. Read 'em and weep when they get here later this year.

Promoting a food which has never been subjected to any clincial trial
for struvites or any other disease is a risk. Urolith formation and
urinary crystals are MUCH more complicated than just urine pH. Assuming
that any food which generates a urine pH in the right range will work
is a huge error. Has the food ever been subjected to APR (Activity
Product Ratio) studies? Nope. Has the food ever been subjected to any
clinical trial of any kind? Nope.

Life is full of risks, some we understand and some we don't. The ones
for which we have factual data and good peer reviewed published
studies, allow us to make logical prudent decisions. The issue of
excess phosphorus in a diet is a proven risk, well documented and well
understood. Everyone makes choices to ignore certain risks. Sometimes
the choice is between one risk versus another. Sometimes taking the
risk is just plain foolish, because there is no positive advantage to
taking the risk. Feeding excessive phos in a diet is one of those.