Some Initial Jottings Re Struvite Crystals + Food

Jean,
I'll try to answer below.

s/d is for temporary feeding only, and dissolves the crystals.
How frequently should a cat be monitored on s/d?

If the original stone was confirmed by analysis, then monthly should be
enough.


c/d-s (now just c/d-and what does this change imply?) is for
long-term prevention and maintenance.
How frequently does a cat on c/d need to be monitored?

The name was changed due to the confusion that existed by having two
different forms of c/d - c/d-s for struvite and c/d-oxl for oxalates.
The new names are c/d and x/d. Cat's on c/d do not need to be monitored
any more frequently than being fed any other diet. Once the vet
initially confirms that urine pH is appropriate and no signs of
crystals are observed, then annual exams shouold be sufficient.

There are questions about Hill's composition. While I can
understand why a lower-protein diet might be indicated (even
though cats are carnivores, and this seems odd), why does Hill's
use such low-quality meat? I have not seen any denial of that,
and it would be nice if the meat in the formulas was human-grade
and not "floor sweepings".

The protein protion of c/d is 90.1% digestible. The objective of a
therapeutic diet is to resolve disease issues, not meet Madison Ave
marketing requirements. Now is not the time to engage in internet
fantasies about "human grade" meats. In regards to "human grade" there
is no such thing. I could package horse manure and used engine oil and
call it "human grade" with complete immunity. There is no legal
definition of "human grade" - it is merely Madison Ave marketing hype.
In therapeutic diets the nutrients must take first place on the
decision tree, not what "sounds good" and matches Madison Ave marketing
glitz. Specific nutrients allow a food of this nature to pass APR
studies which prove the food will nto induce struvite crystals in cats.


Add a bit (1/8 tsp or so) of vitamin C to food. (Another person
says 250-mg pills [smallest possible] two times per day. NOT the
chewable type. BUT cats don't like it and it may be dangerous to
do this, and some question whether or not that actually acidifies
the urine.

You couldn't get a cat to eat enough of this to alter the urine pH one
tenth of a point. Even force feeding massive amounts failed to move the
urine pH half a point.

Cranberry-Blueberry extract.
While there is data on this in humans, it has nothign to do with urine
Ph but ratehr with the ability of certain parts of cranberries to
inhibit the attachment of bacteria to the bladder wall. Ther is NO data
that suggests this will be the same in cats. Further cats typically
have _sterile_ crystals and unlike dogs the issue of bacteria is not
the primary driver.

Methio-form tablets, which cat may think are a treat.
If you use this - do so only under veterinary supervision and do NOT
feed an acidifying diet at the same time. You will likely push urine pH
into the sub 6.0 range and risk forming CaOX stones.

From: "Jean B."

True. However, if he refuses to eat the prescription diet you'll need to
find an alternative. I had very good luck in the past using Methioform
tablets, which is a prescription urinary acidifier, and Wellness canned
along with doing at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. I refuse to
use prescription foods as they are basically low-quality crap and I have
always found alternatives that work just as well.


Unfortunately that's just not true. Prescripion foods are NOT "low-quality
crap". Do you have anything to back that up or are you going to continue to
make unsubstaniated comments and then duck and dodge when questioned? It sure
sounds like sour grapes coming from you since you must be one of these
washed-out techs that couldn't hack it in the real world?

"Jean B." wrote in message ...
I have started going back over the posts made on this topic and
thought I would post some of my jottings here for comment and for
other people's benefit.

Food Composition
recommended ranges:
phosphorous 0.5-0.9
sodium 0.2-0.6*
magnesium 0.04-0.10

Hill's s/d:
phosphorous 0.52
sodium 0.86*
magnesium 0.041

*Moderate sodium is not a problem for cats with struvite crystals
(but IS a problem for cats with oxalate crystals)

What We Want to Achieve:
Urine pH needs to be between 6.2 and 6.3 or 6.4 for maintenance.
Needs to be about 6.0 to dissolve crystals that are already
present. BUT note that very acidic diets can promote calcium
oxalate crystals and uroliths, which are much more dangerous than
struvite crystals.

Jean,

If he's not taking to s/d- c/d - you can try other similarly formulated
diets.

Iams Low pH/S, Purina UR, or Walthams S/O Control pH.

Phil

From: "Steve Crane"

And I'm still waiting for you to tell us about that crystal ball you
have which lets you know WHICH cat will end up with renal failure.
Since there is not one whit worth of POSITIVE news in feeding high phos
foods -

High phos foods???? I didn't see any mention of high phos foods. I see you're
here once again to defend your employer, Hills. You should spend more of your
time trying to teach them that dry food is not an appropriate diet for a
carnivore.

Isn't it funny that many people who switch to a food like Wellness report how
much better their cats are doing? Sorry that it upsets you so much

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecatjournal.com/articles/claws.htm

Steve Crane wrote:

Jean,
I'll try to answer below.

s/d is for temporary feeding only, and dissolves the crystals.
How frequently should a cat be monitored on s/d?

If the original stone was confirmed by analysis, then monthly should be
enough.

When I asked why I was not given s/d, the vet said that was for
stones and Mingy had crystals. As far as the crystals go, I think
they just did a quick microscopic analysis.

c/d-s (now just c/d-and what does this change imply?) is for
long-term prevention and maintenance.
How frequently does a cat on c/d need to be monitored?

The name was changed due to the confusion that existed by having two
different forms of c/d - c/d-s for struvite and c/d-oxl for oxalates.
The new names are c/d and x/d.

Ah. Well that makes sense.

Cat's on c/d do not need to be monitored
any more frequently than being fed any other diet. Once the vet
initially confirms that urine pH is appropriate and no signs of
crystals are observed, then annual exams shouold be sufficient.

Okay. We were initially told to go have that checked in 1-2
months. I think I would tend to go sooner, rather than later.

There are questions about Hill's composition. While I can
understand why a lower-protein diet might be indicated (even
though cats are carnivores, and this seems odd), why does Hill's
use such low-quality meat? I have not seen any denial of that,
and it would be nice if the meat in the formulas was human-grade
and not "floor sweepings".

The protein protion of c/d is 90.1% digestible. The objective of a
therapeutic diet is to resolve disease issues, not meet Madison Ave
marketing requirements. Now is not the time to engage in internet
fantasies about "human grade" meats. In regards to "human grade" there
is no such thing. I could package horse manure and used engine oil and
call it "human grade" with complete immunity. There is no legal
definition of "human grade" - it is merely Madison Ave marketing hype.
In therapeutic diets the nutrients must take first place on the
decision tree, not what "sounds good" and matches Madison Ave marketing
glitz. Specific nutrients allow a food of this nature to pass APR
studies which prove the food will nto induce struvite crystals in cats.

But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet.
Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use
"floor-sweepings", meat from possibly diseased organs, etc.? Now
here's a possible tip: if you used really high-grade meats in
addition to the formula that is (to a newbie to all of this,
anyway) scientifically designed to help such cats, then you would
have a winning product, which would get less flak.

Add a bit (1/8 tsp or so) of vitamin C to food. (Another person
says 250-mg pills [smallest possible] two times per day. NOT the
chewable type. BUT cats don't like it and it may be dangerous to
do this, and some question whether or not that actually acidifies
the urine.

You couldn't get a cat to eat enough of this to alter the urine pH one
tenth of a point. Even force feeding massive amounts failed to move the
urine pH half a point.

Okay, I've read this more than once.

Cranberry-Blueberry extract.
While there is data on this in humans, it has nothign to do with urine
Ph but ratehr with the ability of certain parts of cranberries to
inhibit the attachment of bacteria to the bladder wall. Ther is NO data
that suggests this will be the same in cats. Further cats typically
have _sterile_ crystals and unlike dogs the issue of bacteria is not
the primary driver.

And Mingy's culture was negative. Note that I was just putting
together notes based on my reading. I was trying NOT to take
sides.

Methio-form tablets, which cat may think are a treat.
If you use this - do so only under veterinary supervision and do NOT
feed an acidifying diet at the same time. You will likely push urine pH
into the sub 6.0 range and risk forming CaOX stones.

That's the problem, isn't it? Seems like one is looking at a
small desirable range of urine pH.

Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that
is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on
that diet. Also, did you see the three different comments I got
from three different vets re the use of s/d? What IS the story
here? Maybe you answered that elsewhere, so I will continue
reading.

Thanks for your comments.

--
Jean B.

"Phil P." wrote:

If he's not taking to s/d- c/d - you can try other similarly formulated
diets.

Iams Low pH/S, Purina UR, or Walthams S/O Control pH.

Phil

Yes, I now have some Eukanuba. It's good to know there are
options.
--
Jean B.

But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet.
Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use
"floor-sweepings", meat from possibly diseased organs, etc.? Now
here's a possible tip: if you used really high-grade meats in
addition to the formula that is (to a newbie to all of this,
anyway) scientifically designed to help such cats, then you would
have a winning product, which would get less flak.

I guess we need to step back and define what "high quality" meat
is? Is it a meat source that is extremely digestible? (90.1%) Is it a
meat source that provides a very broad spectrum of amino acids? Is it a
meat source that contains very specific levels of nutrients designed to
meet the nutrient needs of the cat in any given disease stage? Or is
quality defined by Madison Ave marketing glitz about nonsense like
"human grade"? The comment about "floor sweepings" is simply
Madison Ave marketing glitz in another form. No meats used at Hill's
or any other major manufacturer are "floor sweepings" or derived
from "diseased organs". I highly doubt that ANY of the larger premium
manufacturers would fit in this category. You would have to drop down
to the Ol Roy level to find such ingredients. That's simply more
catch phrase internet fantasy. The meats used in Hill's products are
all USDA graded meats. Many may be parts of the animal that we in our
western civilization do not prefer to eat, lungs, pork livers, other
internal organs etc. Have you noticed any specials at the grocery store
on pork hearts lately? None of these ingredients are "floor
sweepings", that's just nonsense used by scaremongers. It makes for
great press and gets your attention, but it's patent nonsense. The
choice is to provide the right nutrients to resolve disease issues or
provide the "right" ingredients to satisfy Madison Ave marketing
glitz. In the case of animals with some disease condition, providing
the right nutrients MUST always take precedence over Madison Ave
marketing hype.


Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that
is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on
that diet. Also, did you see the three different comments I got
from three different vets re the use of s/d? What IS the story
here? Maybe you answered that elsewhere, so I will continue
reading.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed to drive urine pH down to the 5.9-6.1
range. For that reason is can only be fed on a short term basis and
must be monitored carefully by a veterinarian. Understanding risks must
also be taken into account. Struvite crystal formation is common in
cats between 2-5 years of age, after age 7 Calcium Oxalate are more
common. Certain breeds - Persian, Himalyan and Burmese are more prone
to CaOx stones at any age. For these reasons a vet needs to be
involved. Suppose you have a 9 year old Persian presented with crystals
- would s/d be a good choice? Absolutely not, unless the stone was
analyzed as struvite, the vet found urine pH around 7+ etc. It is
interesting to note that all the cat foods on the market which make
claims about "urinary tract health" are required to drive urine pH
down below 6.0 for one year in order to use that claim. These foods hit
the grocery store shelves in the early 80's - at about the same
time that CaOx stones began to become more prevalent and common in
cats.

Steve Crane wrote:

But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet.
Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use
"floor-sweepings", meat from possibly diseased organs, etc.? Now
here's a possible tip: if you used really high-grade meats in
addition to the formula that is (to a newbie to all of this,
anyway) scientifically designed to help such cats, then you would
have a winning product, which would get less flak.

I guess we need to step back and define what "high quality" meat
is? Is it a meat source that is extremely digestible? (90.1%) Is it a
meat source that provides a very broad spectrum of amino acids? Is it a
meat source that contains very specific levels of nutrients designed to
meet the nutrient needs of the cat in any given disease stage? Or is
quality defined by Madison Ave marketing glitz about nonsense like
"human grade"? The comment about "floor sweepings" is simply
Madison Ave marketing glitz in another form. No meats used at Hill's
or any other major manufacturer are "floor sweepings" or derived
from "diseased organs". I highly doubt that ANY of the larger premium
manufacturers would fit in this category. You would have to drop down
to the Ol Roy level to find such ingredients. That's simply more
catch phrase internet fantasy. The meats used in Hill's products are
all USDA graded meats. Many may be parts of the animal that we in our
western civilization do not prefer to eat, lungs, pork livers, other
internal organs etc. Have you noticed any specials at the grocery store
on pork hearts lately? None of these ingredients are "floor
sweepings", that's just nonsense used by scaremongers. It makes for
great press and gets your attention, but it's patent nonsense. The
choice is to provide the right nutrients to resolve disease issues or
provide the "right" ingredients to satisfy Madison Ave marketing
glitz. In the case of animals with some disease condition, providing
the right nutrients MUST always take precedence over Madison Ave
marketing hype.

Okay. Thank you for clarifying. That's exactly what I want to
know.

Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that
is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on
that diet. Also, did you see the three different comments I got
from three different vets re the use of s/d? What IS the story
here? Maybe you answered that elsewhere, so I will continue
reading.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed to drive urine pH down to the 5.9-6.1
range. For that reason is can only be fed on a short term basis and
must be monitored carefully by a veterinarian. Understanding risks must
also be taken into account. Struvite crystal formation is common in
cats between 2-5 years of age, after age 7 Calcium Oxalate are more
common. Certain breeds - Persian, Himalyan and Burmese are more prone
to CaOx stones at any age. For these reasons a vet needs to be
involved. Suppose you have a 9 year old Persian presented with crystals
- would s/d be a good choice? Absolutely not, unless the stone was
analyzed as struvite, the vet found urine pH around 7+ etc. It is
interesting to note that all the cat foods on the market which make
claims about "urinary tract health" are required to drive urine pH
down below 6.0 for one year in order to use that claim. These foods hit
the grocery store shelves in the early 80's - at about the same
time that CaOx stones began to become more prevalent and common in
cats.

Yes, I have read that. :-( BYW, Mingy is a color-point Persian.
He was diagnosed with struvite crystals/blockage. They appear to
have decided that just on the basis of a quick microscopic
examination. I have been told the following by the three vets (in
case you didn't see all of this):

1. Put him on c/d kibble. Vet preferred kibble. No mention of
s/d
2. Vet strongly urges use of canned food.
3. Vet seems to prefer canned food and gives me cans of s/d, c/d,
and Eukanuba. Says something like s/d is higher grade.

This is not only confusing, but ill-advised and just plain sloppy
advice. No wonder I am trying to figure out my approach here and
doing as much research as I can stand online.
--
Jean B.

in article , Jean B. at wrote on
1/29/05 8:20 PM:

Steve Crane wrote:

But you can also have high-quality meat in a therapeutic diet.
Why is this not the case? Why would I want to use
"floor-sweepings", meat from possibly diseased organs, etc.? Now
here's a possible tip: if you used really high-grade meats in
addition to the formula that is (to a newbie to all of this,
anyway) scientifically designed to help such cats, then you would
have a winning product, which would get less flak.

I guess we need to step back and define what "high quality" meat
is? Is it a meat source that is extremely digestible? (90.1%) Is it a
meat source that provides a very broad spectrum of amino acids? Is it a
meat source that contains very specific levels of nutrients designed to
meet the nutrient needs of the cat in any given disease stage? Or is
quality defined by Madison Ave marketing glitz about nonsense like
"human grade"? The comment about "floor sweepings" is simply
Madison Ave marketing glitz in another form. No meats used at Hill's
or any other major manufacturer are "floor sweepings" or derived
from "diseased organs". I highly doubt that ANY of the larger premium
manufacturers would fit in this category. You would have to drop down
to the Ol Roy level to find such ingredients. That's simply more
catch phrase internet fantasy. The meats used in Hill's products are
all USDA graded meats. Many may be parts of the animal that we in our
western civilization do not prefer to eat, lungs, pork livers, other
internal organs etc. Have you noticed any specials at the grocery store
on pork hearts lately? None of these ingredients are "floor
sweepings", that's just nonsense used by scaremongers. It makes for
great press and gets your attention, but it's patent nonsense. The
choice is to provide the right nutrients to resolve disease issues or
provide the "right" ingredients to satisfy Madison Ave marketing
glitz. In the case of animals with some disease condition, providing
the right nutrients MUST always take precedence over Madison Ave
marketing hype.

Okay. Thank you for clarifying. That's exactly what I want to
know.

Now back to the s/d, how low does that push the pH? I assume that
is the issue and why cats need to be checked frequently when on
that diet. Also, did you see the three different comments I got
from three different vets re the use of s/d? What IS the story
here? Maybe you answered that elsewhere, so I will continue
reading.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed to drive urine pH down to the 5.9-6.1
range. For that reason is can only be fed on a short term basis and
must be monitored carefully by a veterinarian. Understanding risks must
also be taken into account. Struvite crystal formation is common in
cats between 2-5 years of age, after age 7 Calcium Oxalate are more
common. Certain breeds - Persian, Himalyan and Burmese are more prone
to CaOx stones at any age. For these reasons a vet needs to be
involved. Suppose you have a 9 year old Persian presented with crystals
- would s/d be a good choice? Absolutely not, unless the stone was
analyzed as struvite, the vet found urine pH around 7+ etc. It is
interesting to note that all the cat foods on the market which make
claims about "urinary tract health" are required to drive urine pH
down below 6.0 for one year in order to use that claim. These foods hit
the grocery store shelves in the early 80's - at about the same
time that CaOx stones began to become more prevalent and common in
cats.

Yes, I have read that. :-( BYW, Mingy is a color-point Persian.
He was diagnosed with struvite crystals/blockage. They appear to
have decided that just on the basis of a quick microscopic
examination. I have been told the following by the three vets (in
case you didn't see all of this):

1. Put him on c/d kibble. Vet preferred kibble. No mention of
s/d
2. Vet strongly urges use of canned food.
3. Vet seems to prefer canned food and gives me cans of s/d, c/d,
and Eukanuba. Says something like s/d is higher grade.

This is not only confusing, but ill-advised and just plain sloppy
advice. No wonder I am trying to figure out my approach here and
doing as much research as I can stand online.


I will tell you that I had a red persian that got crystals and would
eliminate inappropriately. I fed him the c/d we would go off of it
ocassionally but he did VERY well with it. You can *also* over worry which
will stress Mingy. I would add a high quality canned food he likes and
supplement with the low pH food (whichever he likes best). Add a Feliway
diffuser. This is basically what I;ve done with Grant. It has worked very
well. I do keep an eye on potty habits but he only had one slight relapse
about 3 mmonths after the first and it was such that it was just a sludgy
plug that my vet worked out manually, quickly and he has never had a problem
since.

----------------------
High phos foods???? I didn't see any mention of high phos f=ADoods. I
see you're
here once again to defend your employer, Hills. You should =ADspend
more of your
time trying to teach them that dry food is not an appropriat=ADe diet
for a
carnivore.

Isn't it funny that many people who switch to a food like We=ADllness
report how
much better their cats are doing? Sorry that it upsets you =ADso much

--------------------------
Hey Lauren....Does OMH recommend their products for FLUTD or is that
just the opinion of an internet hack like yourself? Seems to me that
if the company that makes the stuff doesn't even recommend it for
FLUTD, then YOU shouldn't either! Also, why do you continue to persist
in falsely maintaining that a "dry food" is not "appropriate" for cats?
Millions and millions of cats have thrived on dry diets and continue
to do so. For someone who works for/with lawyers, it continues to
amuse me that the truth doesn't seem to hold much sway over you!

As for Steve defending Hill's, why does that "upset you so much"? He
wasn't defending them, he was explaining to the OP what the difference
was between c/d-s and c/d (just a name change). He then provided
additional info. For the thousandth time, I'll ask you: Why are you
such a Hill's Hater??