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#21
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Low-phosphorus cat food
"Steve Crane" eodemolay cox.net wrote:
treeline12345 yahoo.com wrote: (I put both lists in ascending values) This is great information. I tried to get this from Purina. I gave up after getting three different values for the same product. It's very uneven the quality of information. It's much better if this is published. It's kind of sad that this ordinary information is only available as a veterinary resource. Why not public information? After all, it's only the product listing. Actually I doubt the information is all that good. Unless you can match the analyticals to the same manufacturing location and the same lot of pet food. Any expectation that nutrient values in grocery store foods will be the same from one lot to another is pretty much wishful thinking. That is not the goal - or even a last place sub-goal of foods manufactured for this market channel. It shouldn't be at all surprising that you would get three or four or different sets of values. It would not surprise me at all to find an analysis of 3 different lots of precisely the same food that have a variation in nutrients by more than 50% from the highest to the lowest. If you have any citations for that, I would like to see them. Path: newssvr27.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy. com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.pro digy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!pr odigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!o13g2 000cwo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: "Steve Crane" eodemolay cox.net Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Subject: Low-phosphorus cat food Date: 29 Jan 2006 10:55:47 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: 1138560947.697635.152430 o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com References: dvi5t151at07qcdmav5qn6sj2q74df1vr0 4ax.com 13935-43D3A74F-2201 storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net 1138285877.330397.68590 g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com 1138395294.583882.292800 g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com CSxCf.7638$vU2.4664 newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1138508648.444355.154080 f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.19.14.20 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1138560953 12484 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2006 18:55:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:55:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: 1138508648.444355.154080 f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com User-Agent: G2/0.2 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com Injection-Info: o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.19.14.20; posting-account=HfrBWg0AAAC_TK2NmkB0e2q_0YfZ_DDY Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:422250 |
#22
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Low-phosphorus cat food
John Doe wrote:
"Steve Crane" eodemolay cox.net wrote: treeline12345 yahoo.com wrote: (I put both lists in ascending values) This is great information. I tried to get this from Purina. I gave up after getting three different values for the same product. It's very uneven the quality of information. It's much better if this is published. It's kind of sad that this ordinary information is only available as a veterinary resource. Why not public information? After all, it's only the product listing. Actually I doubt the information is all that good. Unless you can match the analyticals to the same manufacturing location and the same lot of pet food. Any expectation that nutrient values in grocery store foods will be the same from one lot to another is pretty much wishful thinking. That is not the goal - or even a last place sub-goal of foods manufactured for this market channel. It shouldn't be at all surprising that you would get three or four or different sets of values. It would not surprise me at all to find an analysis of 3 different lots of precisely the same food that have a variation in nutrients by more than 50% from the highest to the lowest. If you have any citations for that, I would like to see them. You can cite me. I just posted that I asked way more than three times for the phosphorus levels and received more than three different replies. Why? It's all a bit of a joke, apparently. There is no consistant monitoring except at a very crude level for these Fancy Feast and comparable products. I cannot trust them now except not to make poisonous food. Whoppee. I just accessed the vet part of Purina/Nestle. Very disappointing. I did not even see phosphorus levels in their main program they put out for the vets to use. It just listed the kcals which is better than nothing. But pretty more. It's what I would release for laymen not for vets. Very childlike program. Idiot level. Where do you even find phosphorus levels on their vet site? I cannot find Phil P's Vet Guide from Purina/Nestle that he found nor yours except for the crude listing of a few Fancy Feasts and only the kcals. Did you go to another place for the phosphorus levels? I assume you used the same primitive Vet Guide that I found. Or is that the same as Phil P's? Can't be since his listed actual elements like phosphorus. Is there a special part of their site then? I registered for the vet part of the site. |
#23
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Low-phosphorus cat food
Raff wrote:
I have been unable to find the above-mentioned "Friskies Special Diet Ocean Whitefish and Tuna Dinner" on the Friskies website, or on Google for that matter. They do list a "Friskies Special Diet Ocean Whitefish Diet" for urinary tract. Is it possible that they have discontinued the formulation with tuna? Do you have any information on the Special Diet formulation without tuna? Raff I just don't know now. It was in my notes and I remember buying it. Maybe it was the last of a series they discontinued. Maybe I am losing my "mind." It's so difficult to do anything with Purina/Nestle that I am about to completely give up on this company. If they cannot publish what they have, then screw them. I don't find any reliable info when I telephone and ask in person, when I search their web site, when I search their vet web site. They are a Swiss company and they act like a Swiss bank. All smiles and screw you when you really need them. It's the royal run-around. You just don't know what's true. How can I trust them now? Remember Africa and messing around with the formula for babies' milk? Was that not Nestle? If they do that to human beings, what would they do to cats? Okay, I am angry. Time to let this all go. Take a deep breath. Here's what Phil P. published and it's too damn high for a special diet. It's even too damn high for a regular diet: Friskies Special Diet Ocean Whitefish Diet 0.26% (AF) 1.18% (DMB) 1.18% phosphorus is almost 1.20% which is about double the phosphorus you would regularly like to use, especially in an older cat. Bums. And this they call a SPECIAL DIET. Special Diet for death. Okay, that's a tad harsh. Maybe a Special Diet except sky high in phosphorus? Do you have any information on the Special Diet formulation without tuna? This is the only Special Diet with Ocean Whitefish that N/P lists in their nutritional profiles. Phil I'm repeating what Phil replied to you because you missed it, apparently. Or did I? |
#24
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Low-phosphorus cat food
"treeline12345 yahoo.com" treeline12345 yahoo.com wrote:
John Doe wrote: "Steve Crane" eodemolay cox.net wrote: treeline12345 yahoo.com wrote: (I put both lists in ascending values) This is great information. I tried to get this from Purina. I gave up after getting three different values for the same product. It's very uneven the quality of information. It's much better if this is published. It's kind of sad that this ordinary information is only available as a veterinary resource. Why not public information? After all, it's only the product listing. Actually I doubt the information is all that good. Unless you can match the analyticals to the same manufacturing location and the same lot of pet food. Any expectation that nutrient values in grocery store foods will be the same from one lot to another is pretty much wishful thinking. That is not the goal - or even a last place sub-goal of foods manufactured for this market channel. It shouldn't be at all surprising that you would get three or four or different sets of values. It would not surprise me at all to find an analysis of 3 different lots of precisely the same food that have a variation in nutrients by more than 50% from the highest to the lowest. If you have any citations for that, I would like to see them. You can cite me. I just posted that I asked way more than three times for the phosphorus levels and received more than three different replies. Why? It's all a bit of a joke, apparently. There is no consistant monitoring except at a very crude level for these Fancy Feast and comparable products. I cannot trust them now except not to make poisonous food. Whoppee. I'm talking about a citation to a study. Like is there a PubMed for animals? Path: newssvr29.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm05.news.prodigy. com!newsdbm04.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prod igy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!ne wscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.co m!postnews.google.com!g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com !not-for-mail From: "treeline12345 yahoo.com" treeline12345 yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Subject: Low-phosphorus cat food Date: 29 Jan 2006 12:11:47 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 48 Message-ID: 1138565507.892158.91120 g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com References: dvi5t151at07qcdmav5qn6sj2q74df1vr0 4ax.com 13935-43D3A74F-2201 storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net 1138285877.330397.68590 g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com 1138395294.583882.292800 g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com CSxCf.7638$vU2.4664 newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1138508648.444355.154080 f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com 1138560947.697635.152430 o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com Xns975A8D7D4C62Dfollydom 207.115.17.102 NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.242.180.131 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1138565512 22957 127.0.0.1 (29 Jan 2006 20:11:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:11:52 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Xns975A8D7D4C62Dfollydom 207.115.17.102 User-Agent: G2/0.2 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.7.10) Gecko/20050716 Firefox/1.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com Injection-Info: g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=71.242.180.131; posting-account=kqfINg0AAAA8H-ycJLgqG6TFoFACZ1iS Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:422258 |
#25
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Low-phosphorus cat food
John Doe wrote:
"Steve Crane" eodemolay cox.net wrote: Actually I doubt the information is all that good. Unless you can match the analyticals to the same manufacturing location and the same lot of pet food. Any expectation that nutrient values in grocery store foods will be the same from one lot to another is pretty much wishful thinking. That is not the goal - or even a last place sub-goal of foods manufactured for this market channel. It shouldn't be at all surprising that you would get three or four or different sets of values. It would not surprise me at all to find an analysis of 3 different lots of precisely the same food that have a variation in nutrients by more than 50% from the highest to the lowest. If you have any citations for that, I would like to see them. You can cite me. I just posted that I asked way more than three times for the phosphorus levels and received more than three different replies. Why? It's all a bit of a joke, apparently. There is no consistant monitoring except at a very crude level for these Fancy Feast and comparable products. I cannot trust them now except not to make poisonous food. Whoppee. I'm talking about a citation to a study. Like is there a PubMed for animals? PubMed includes quite a few veterinarian or animal studies. There are veterinarian resources that you can try. Someone might have run a study. I don't know if cat food makers are obligated to really put out the phosphorus levels. I kind of doubt it for the mass supermarket since most of the manufacturers I call just laugh at me when I ask for calcium and phosphorus levels. I could look up whether the phosphorus levels have much to do with the AAFCO or official cat food requirements. I doubt it since most of the mass foods are super high in phosphorus. Science Diet is an exception. Royal Canin and Iams may also be exceptions. But these are not supermarket companies although I see Iams and am not sure about that company. I did get a lot of info from Science Diet and Royal Canin. I get almost zip from Purina/Nestle. mostly talking heads, nice people, but clueless as a rule. And I get absolutely zip from the vets on the staff at Purina/Nestle. Nothing. Not a single answer as to what they are putting into their foods, well, the phosphorus levels. Nothing. And the subject is not necessarily one that scientists conduct studies of. But I do not know since I am not yet motivated to search. Since the poster works for Science Diet and is thus part of the industry, he might have a valid point. Of course, others will say he is biased. But that may be part of the package. In any case, his explanation dovetails why I have had so much trouble finding out information from these manufacturers. And in Purina/Nestle's case, the information was often different. Now I know why. Either someone is not terribly compentent or the info changes from batch to batch or no one really cares all that much. In any case, red flags are raised. If someone cannot be bothered to answer a question easily, then it could be that the question is not really important to that company. Nestle does not have a great reputation for consideration in this regard - although the deaths of the infants in Africa might incline them now to be a tad more socially responsible. That was about pushing a substitute for mother's milk that was not sufficient for life [i forget why, contained soy and/or just not able to support life as natural breast milk]? A corporation that big and ruthless is not going to be all that motivated about little pussy cats and their phosphorus levels. The end of your posts have an awful lot of info attached to them. Is that a function of webtv or can you trim that info? I trim your info here but maybe it's a function of your news program. Something like under Options, turn off Detailed Info? But with webtv, it may not be under your control at all? On my other newsreaders, there's a slot for turning off HTML which does the same sort of thing, except in that case, it's adding HTML code at the end instead of information. I got it. It's the Headers in a way, giving out where your, what do you call it, the train, the tracking, I don't recall the exact words, but it tracks your internet addressing and routes. |
#26
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Low-phosphorus cat food
"Steve Crane" wrote in message ups.com... Phil P. wrote: Why did you only post the Fancy Feast and Friskies diets with the highest phosphorus content? Some FF & Friskies diets are as low and even *lower* in phosphorus than some Science Diets. Because those are the only ones Purina lists in the veterinary product guide - But Steve, you *know* Fancy Feast and Friskies make *many* lower phosphorus diets. You should have mentioned that fact rather than imply all their diets are high in phosphorus. |
#27
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Low-phosphorus cat food
wrote in message I cannot find Phil P's Vet Guide from Purina/Nestle that he found Steve posted that, not me. |
#28
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Low-phosphorus cat food
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#29
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Low-phosphorus cat food
Phil P. wrote:
But Steve, you *know* Fancy Feast and Friskies make *many* lower phosphorus diets. You should have mentioned that fact rather than imply all their diets are high in phosphorus. That's a toughie. On one hand, he works for Science Diet, a rather small company compared to Nestle[Purina] that specializes in food for felines and canines. That company actually provides listings that almost all the others cannot be bothered to. So if he wishes to advocate, well, okay, a little provocation may be good. And you are here to point out any questions about all of this. And it's good, also, in a way, that Science Diet has Steve here. At least they care enough to squawk. On the other hand, I cannot see how a handful of their many product constitute *many* lower phosphorus diets. I don't know much about this stuff. But I counted up, just once, all the varieties of Fancy Feast, and I counted somewhere around 60. Out of that 60, I found 5, based on your posts and my readings, that I would consider acceptable phosphorus levels for a feline diet. 5/60 = 1/12 which is, wait, 8.3%. That's not a lot. For the average uninformed consumer, there is a 1 in 12 chance of picking up a Fancy Feast that is reasonably safe in phosphorus levels. That's not good. See later. I biased this counting because I discounted beef products. See below. If people only buy Fancy Feast for one meal a week, then, okay, not much of a problem. If buying for everyday, well, what happens to a cat on a diet where the phosphorus levels go start around usually 1% to 2%? And the recommended or better levels are less than 1%, maybe around 0.7% for most cats, to be on the safe side? Friskies has about 44 varieties. Maybe 9 are okay with 4 below 0.8%. Fancy Feast has about 9 okay too. I count only 5 since I discard all those with beef in it. Don't laugh. Mad cow disease and all that and my cat won't touch the beef. Smart kitty. But 9/60 is a better count, so that's 3/20 or 15% chance, almost double my original number of 8.3%. In any case, the odds are against picking cans that are low in phosphorus. A very good chance to pick cans that are high. Does it matter? It might and some seem to think so. I might have miscounted Fancy Feast now. They may have less varieties than they used to. They are repackaging the brand. I will search for the brands you list that are low. But it's all a hassle since most of these products are high in phosphorus. I have to inspect each can and most of the cans are very high in phosphorus. Does it matter? I keep remember one vet when I discussed this with him briefly. He said that all this is quite complex. But he does not see at the vet hospital, [and this was a huge 24 hour/7 day vet hospital with many vets and a trauma unit], does not see cats with urinary problems who are fed Science Diet or Iams. I remember that. We were discussing weight loss and not urinary tract problems. This was just an aside that came out of our brief discussion at a pet show. He was representing the animal hospital, not Science Diet or Iams. But who knows. He seemed sincere and that is his impression based on his experience, which may have been extensive. I don't know. But after trying to get information from Nestle/Purina, I come back to an old cliche: If information is difficult to obtain or not readily available, then that's a clear sign, all by itself, of something that is not good and necessitates further scrutiny. |
#30
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Low-phosphorus cat food
wrote in message oups.com... Phil P. wrote: But Steve, you *know* Fancy Feast and Friskies make *many* lower phosphorus diets. You should have mentioned that fact rather than imply all their diets are high in phosphorus. That's a toughie. No, its actually simple. On one hand, he works for Science Diet, a rather small company compared to Nestle[Purina] that specializes in food for felines and canines. That company actually provides listings that almost all the others cannot be bothered to. I know you can't be including N/P because they publish complete nutrient profiles for all their diets. In fact, many companies will send you the nutrient profiles of their diets if you ask for them. You don't really think Hill's has all their diets analyzed, do you? They're only required to test the "lead" member of the product family. Haven't you every wondered why the nutrient values of their diets never change? Or do you actually believe every batch of every diet is exactly the same? On the other hand, I cannot see how a handful of their many product constitute *many* lower phosphorus diets Must be a pretty big hand! About 20 of NP diets are lower to acceptable phosphorus levels-- that's more diets than most companies' entire product lines. |
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